Lobster tank GFCI protection?

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Half a million dishwashers recalled due to risk of fire

image_update_2821697655001_3590077189001_WEB-ChoiLT.jpg



Joule effect, coming to a kitchen near you....


~RJ~
 
Craigv said:
I'm sure the CMP were too. There's no way a GFCI would prevent the overheating control panel fires plaguing Whirlpool and associated brand dishwashers....the culprit circuitry does not fault to ground. The Bosch, etc. models that have overheating power cords? Maybe.
Click to expand...

GE guys (among others) were pushing it in the ROP and openly admitted it was for certain end of life modes.

Obviously they know that when something begins to burn up (like a circuit board) it melts through the plastic or resign to the metal frame its mounted on leaking current as a result.

Again we have another reason besides water.


https://www.consumerreports.org/dis...re-lawsuit-with-offer-of-rebates-and-repairs/


http://www.kitchenaidfire.com/p53.html
Not just these guys either. Prior to that GE (Hotpoint, Monogram, a few others) and Maytag (Before the Whirlpool buy out) had problems with rinse aid leaking down into the wires and eating through the insulation starting fires:

2.5 million:


https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2007/general-electric-recalls-dishwashers-due-to-fire-hazard


2.3 million:

https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2007/maytag-recalls-dishwashers-due-to-fire-hazard

And it wasn't just rinse aid. For example the heated dry selector switches on some older units from 1983 to 1989 were melting down as well:

3.1 million:

https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/1999/cpsc-ge-announce-recall-of-dishwashers



There are reports of other make and models doing the same but not no recall has been issued yet. Its not something manufacturers want to admit is actually a problem. If you ask me any modern dishwasher has a risk in doing the same. They are all value engineered down to screws. Gone are the days of robust connectors and quality parts.

As such GFCIs and AFCIs will be the fix to the above, not actually building something that doesn't self destruct at end of life.
 
jumper said:
I meant I was serious about the rumor or such. Did not say it was gospel or that I agreed.

I do not wire DWs so I ain’t really interested in the back story or substantiation for the code, I just was sayng I am pretty sure there was back room politics/shenanigans involved. Don G I think may have brought it up. Do not remember.
Click to expand...

It was I who brought up most of it- but being me, who questions, can't possibly know the story :D


I am to lazy to dig through the ROPs again, but I did post snippets on here of Engineers working for GE (and others) who said they would protect certain end of life failure mods.

I encourage you to go to an appliance scrap heap and take apart a few makes from the mid to late 2000s vs a few from the 80s even 90s. The quality drop is dramatic. For one it was spade connectors in the 70s, spade connectors for the parts and large molex for the timers, then in the 2000s it went to all micro molex connectors that look good for only half an amp- the circuit boards often corroded in many places.
 
Last edited:
romex jockey said:
Half a million dishwashers recalled due to risk of fire

image_update_2821697655001_3590077189001_WEB-ChoiLT.jpg



Joule effect, coming to a kitchen near you....


~RJ~
Click to expand...

article written 10.2017
placed in service between 1.2013 and 5.2015, avd 3.2014
avg in service time 3.6 years
failure rate 5/40000 = 1 out of 80000 or 0.0013% over 3.6 yesrs
or 1.4 units out 400000 per year 0.0004%, 0.35/100000 per year
this may be high since some of the 5 failures may have been in the first recall batch
very proactive
and no injuries

more have been killed or injured by fish tanks in a shorter period of time and with fewer total units (tanks)

There have been five instances of the malfunctioning power cords causing fires and property damage, but no injuries, the CPSC says. The affected units span the four brands listed above and were sold between January 2013 and May 2015. The CPSC initially recalled 149,000 units in October of 2015, but affected models were still reported.
 
Ingenieur said:
article written 10.2017
placed in service between 1.2013 and 5.2015, avd 3.2014
avg in service time 3.6 years
failure rate 5/40000 = 1 out of 80000 or 0.0013%
or 1.4 units out 400000 per year 0.0004%, 0.35/100000 per year
this may be high since some of the 5 failures may have been in the first recall batch
very proactive
and no injuries

more have been killed or injured by fish tanks in a shorter period of time and with fewer total units (tanks)

There have been five instances of the malfunctioning power cords causing fires and property damage, but no injuries, the CPSC says. The affected units span the four brands listed above and were sold between January 2013 and May 2015. The CPSC initially recalled 149,000 units in October of 2015, but affected models were still reported.
Click to expand...

Isn't AFCI protection supposed to catch this kind of problem?
 
Ingenieur said:
article written 10.2017
placed in service between 1.2013 and 5.2015, avd 3.2014
avg in service time 3.6 years
failure rate 5/40000 = 1 out of 80000 or 0.0013% over 3.6 yesrs
or 1.4 units out 400000 per year 0.0004%, 0.35/100000 per year
this may be high since some of the 5 failures may have been in the first recall batch
very proactive
and no injuries

more have been killed or injured by fish tanks in a shorter period of time and with fewer total units (tanks)

There have been five instances of the malfunctioning power cords causing fires and property damage, but no injuries, the CPSC says. The affected units span the four brands listed above and were sold between January 2013 and May 2015. The CPSC initially recalled 149,000 units in October of 2015, but affected models were still reported.
Click to expand...




Look at my links, there is actually property damage.


3.6 years? That is for new machines- old ones went 10-20 years. Older machines (besides GE's 1983-1989 made recall) had no such reports. By old I mean pre 2000.

The NEC should not be forcing people to spend money to fix dangerous consumer goods. In other words you save at Lowes/Home Depot on appliances only to make up for it in the electrical isle. Go figure.
 
kwired said:
Isn't AFCI protection supposed to catch this kind of problem?
Click to expand...

you would think
but may not be arcing

not sure a gfci would help either

line and neut would get hot, egc would not since no i
insul breakdown line - neut, say a fault develops of decreasing z over time
assume eventually 100 ohm
1.2 A even when not running, 144 W in a very small area continuously
very hot and increasing breakdown until i increases, as does P and temp = fire
 
Ingenieur said:
you would think
but may not be arcing

not sure a gfci would help either

line and neut would get hot, egc would not since no i
insul breakdown line - neut, say a fault develops of decreasing z over time
assume eventually 100 ohm
1.2 A even when not running, 144 W in a very small area continuously
very hot and increasing breakdown until i increases, as does P and temp = fire
Click to expand...
Maybe they should have required fire suppression of some sort be installed instead of AFCI or GFCI.
 
mbrooke said:
And it wasn't just rinse aid. For example the heated dry selector switches on some older units from 1983 to 1989 were melting down as well:
Click to expand...
I hate that heated dry thing. Anything plastic, even on the top rack, is at risk of deformation at least, and if something plastic falls through into the bottom it makes a real mess. It also is wasteful of energy.

On the last DW we had before the one we have now, the heated dry was on a switch on the front of the unit, and it was easy to accidentally bump it into the ON position. I got out my hot glue gun and made sure that it couldn't happen any more.
 
Ingenieur said:
perhaps it was a mfg defect that was addressed by the recall

doesn't new bldg code require sprinklers in single family dwellings?
Click to expand...
What recall? They saved a lot of $$ on issuing recalls by convincing NEC to make us install GFCI's instead.

At same time did nothing for whatever affected units were installed in existing locations or weren't subject to the new code yet, guess it was ok if those started a fire.
 
kwired said:
What recall? They saved a lot of $$ on issuing recalls by convincing NEC to make us install GFCI's instead.

At same time did nothing for whatever affected units were installed in existing locations or weren't subject to the new code yet, guess it was ok if those started a fire.
Click to expand...

the recall listed in the article

Half a million dishwashers recalled due to risk of fire

An overheating power cord is causing an issue with certain dishwashers. Check to see if yours is on the list.


the image posted says 1.5 mil recalled and 448 incidents

so 2 mil total
 
mbrooke said:
It was I who brought up most of it- but being me, who questions, can't possibly know the story :D


I am to lazy to dig through the ROPs again, but I did post snippets on here of Engineers working for GE (and others) who said they would protect certain end of life failure mods.

I encourage you to go to an appliance scrap heap and take apart a few makes from the mid to late 2000s vs a few from the 80s even 90s. The quality drop is dramatic. For one it was spade connectors in the 70s, spade connectors for the parts and large molex for the timers, then in the 2000s it went to all micro molex connectors that look good for only half an amp- the circuit boards often corroded in many places.
Click to expand...

I simply made a statement. Okay, I mixed up who brought it up.

All those links and stuff anyone who is interested could look up.

You needed only to say it was you, yes fire and DWs were involved, and maybe one simple link.
 
the dishwasher 'issue' pales in comparison
The study found 1,676 Americans were reported to have drowned in a tub during this five-year period, an average of 335 a year. Infants, very young children and the elderly are at risk, but more than half of all tub deaths are among able-bodied people between the ages of 5 and 64.

In 2016, there were approximately:

 
jumper said:
I simply made a statement. Okay, I mixed up who brought it up.

All those links and stuff anyone who is interested could look up.

You needed only to say it was you, yes fire and DWs were involved, and maybe one simple link.
Click to expand...


Ok- maybe I was razzing you more than I should. Just feel like my statements carry less weight at times because I disagree with Ingenuir and a few others. In the end its apologies from me- don't mean to make you feel guilty :)


Regarding the links there are many DW over the years that have been effected by one thing or another which puts them at risk for fire.

Ingenieur said:
the dishwasher 'issue' pales in comparison
The study found 1,676 Americans were reported to have drowned in a tub during this five-year period, an average of 335 a year. Infants, very young children and the elderly are at risk, but more than half of all tub deaths are among able-bodied people between the ages of 5 and 64.

In 2016, there were approximately:

Click to expand...


I agree 100%- but just because there are far more deaths else where does not mean that already safe items should be cheapened to the point risk goes up for them. With that mentality we will soon liberate ourselves into a 3rd world country. Or China where its ok as long as no more than 100 people or the like are killed by anyone thing.
 
Ingenieur said:
the recall listed in the article

Half a million dishwashers recalled due to risk of fire

An overheating power cord is causing an issue with certain dishwashers. Check to see if yours is on the list.


the image posted says 1.5 mil recalled and 448 incidents

so 2 mil total
Click to expand...
Ok, why did they get the GFCI requirement in NEC then, supposedly to counter end of life failures? Does that mean they still never fixed whatever the problem was?

I haven't done too much reading on details and frankly don't care, bottom line was if the GFCI requirement was implemented because of end of life failures of something on the dishwashers, NEC bailed out the manufacturer to some extent - that is something not in the scope of NEC either.

Do I mind selling extra items when installing a DW? Maybe not, but I also am a consumer myself and feel the consumer is getting hosed by manufacturers, NRTL's, and NEC anymore these days.
 
kwired said:
Ok, why did they get the GFCI requirement in NEC then, supposedly to counter end of life failures? Does that mean they still never fixed whatever the problem was?

I haven't done too much reading on details and frankly don't care, bottom line was if the GFCI requirement was implemented because of end of life failures of something on the dishwashers, NEC bailed out the manufacturer to some extent - that is something not in the scope of NEC either.

Do I mind selling extra items when installing a DW? Maybe not, but I also am a consumer myself and feel the consumer is getting hosed by manufacturers, NRTL's, and NEC anymore these days.
Click to expand...

imo it is because of the proximity of water coupled with possible equip or elec system failure/fault (this applies to ANY elec equip/device, it's the water that differentiates this case) and frequent human contact

typically under the sink
spilled water
sink overflow
leaking piping connections
etc
 
Ingenieur said:
imo it is because of the proximity of water coupled with possible equip or elec system failure/fault (this applies to ANY elec equip/device, it's the water that differentiates this case) and frequent human contact

typically under the sink
spilled water
sink overflow
leaking piping connections
etc
Click to expand...
Disposers are arguably just as much a threat of shock, yet those still don't require GFCI as a general rule.

I'm pretty certain the fire starting components were the main force behind this, and they must have found that GFCI does respond to the problem in most cases. Should have been something put in instruction manuals and not a general requirement in NEC to add GFCI protection.

Just plain stupid IMO to have all of 210.8 apply to 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacles (other then the boat hoists, which maybe should have had the requirement elsewhere in code) and being rather obvious the reason was increased risk of shock in certain instances with 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacles - then add this dishwasher thing for totally different reasons.
 
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