Lobster tank GFCI protection?
- Thread starter kp542
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jumper
Senior Member
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Yes, thank you. I am interested.
I also was making a point to buggy-mbrooke-that it is a simple matter to seek information and discuss a subject with someone versed in the matter without being a sycophant/toady.
If I question something you say, you can show me the math and why you came to that opinion/conclusion and discuss the differences. Simple discussion.
I get a free education if I play my cards right and simply say what I know, what I do not know, and go back and explain that again-I am confused.
It really is not that hard, but he will not listen. Sigh.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
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- Retired PV System Designer
I believe that the problem in your case is similar to leakage on high voltage lines at the first rain: it is not the resistivity of the rainwater that causes the leakage, it is the resistivity of the dry surface layer of dust and chemical crud when it is moistened by the rainwater.
Alternatively you can think of it as the water with surface crud dissolved in it.
If your GFCI receptacles were clean, rainwater should not cause a trip.
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Craigv
Senior Member
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- Boyertown, PA, USA
Good choice. I would as well.
It's interesting that the OP's scenario sort of dances around several common GFCI requirements without falling under any. One would think that any equipment that has a portion of it submerged or otherwise in direct contact with a decent quantity of water would be required to have GFCI protection. There certainly are less dangerous areas that do require it....like kitchen countertops beyond 6 ft. from a sink...
jumper
Senior Member
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Yes, the OP scenario does not really directly fit into a category.
Erring on the side of caution here seems prudent given the small cost.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
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- EC
Thread exploded since I last read it.
Pool bonding isn't done for the sake of GFCI's as much as it is done for equipotential reasons.
I agree water alone isn't supposed to be driving force for GFCI protection. It is a factor for increased conductivity of many items though, which is a driving force.
Some instances may be pretty good design reason, others the risk just isn't much different than it is for other utilization equipment.
Does one need to use GFCI protection if they plug in a hot plate and then put a pot of water on it? If it is on a kitchen countertop the protection is already required as a general rule, but say I plug in temporarily in my office or somewhere that isn't generally GFCI protected? We also boil water on electric cooktops or ranges but don't GFCI protect them as a general rule, though that is in the process of changing in 2017 NEC (and seems may expand in future codes) as a cord and plug protected appliance in a commercial kitchen likley will require GFCI, but still does not apply to hardwired appliance - I would think potentially missing EGC on cords is somewhat of a factor here, without that the risk is same either way IMO.
Pure water is a poor conductor, but water easily dissolves a lot of things that will make it more conductive.
Pool bonding isn't done for the sake of GFCI's as much as it is done for equipotential reasons.
Three phase GFCI for pool pump- I bet is coming sometime. Does it need to? IDK. I think the risk is pretty low most installations.
I agree water alone isn't supposed to be driving force for GFCI protection. It is a factor for increased conductivity of many items though, which is a driving force.
Meaningless without more data on births and deaths, and even immigration.
Correct, no direct requirement for GFCI just because we have a fish tank. Other aspects may trigger GFCI requirements, and is not NEC violation to put them in for design reasons.
Some instances may be pretty good design reason, others the risk just isn't much different than it is for other utilization equipment.
Does one need to use GFCI protection if they plug in a hot plate and then put a pot of water on it? If it is on a kitchen countertop the protection is already required as a general rule, but say I plug in temporarily in my office or somewhere that isn't generally GFCI protected? We also boil water on electric cooktops or ranges but don't GFCI protect them as a general rule, though that is in the process of changing in 2017 NEC (and seems may expand in future codes) as a cord and plug protected appliance in a commercial kitchen likley will require GFCI, but still does not apply to hardwired appliance - I would think potentially missing EGC on cords is somewhat of a factor here, without that the risk is same either way IMO.
Tap water varies everywhere you go. Rainwater does as well, at least right when it first when it starts raining.
Pure water is a poor conductor, but water easily dissolves a lot of things that will make it more conductive.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
Just because you see numbers does not mean the argument is correct or logical. Yes Ingenuirs math is correct, but in this case the wrong numbers are being used and the wrong assumptions being made. Here is one example:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=192766&page=9&p=1932314#post1932314
Yes Ingenuir would be correct if the loop impedance was 60ohms, how ever come real world the odds of you finding 60ohms EFLI on a 120 volt outlet wired to code are near zero. Even the doc I linked says the absolute minimum under worse case conservative estimates was 75amp.
Wire-Smith
Senior Member
- Location
- United States
don't the staff reach in the tank to retrieve the lobsters?
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
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- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Nope. Staff got electrocuted from lack of GFCI protection while why we were arguing.
Lobsters did not make it either, but they died of boredom.
It was sad.....
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Like a submersible well pump?
Craigv
Senior Member
- Location
- Boyertown, PA, USA
It's wonder any of us are alive. I sweat a lot, so from a code perspective I'm at least a damp location...
Craigv
Senior Member
- Location
- Boyertown, PA, USA
Just like that. Some of us have really long arms.....
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
No, different scenario IMO,but I see your point.
Craigv
Senior Member
- Location
- Boyertown, PA, USA
Indeed, why did dishwashers get a GFCI requirement and not ranges? Or for that matter, refrigerators with cold water and ice delivery? All three appliances either have water on or in them and can potentially have a scenario of a person in wet contact with the appliance. All three are very often well within 6 feet of a sink.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Last I heard it was a bandaid solution to try to limit them from catching on fire due to some manufacturing mistakes. Would have to search to verify though.
Craigv
Senior Member
- Location
- Boyertown, PA, USA
Hahah, did they really? How quaint.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I am serious.
Craigv
Senior Member
- Location
- Boyertown, PA, USA
I'm sure the CMP were too. There's no way a GFCI would prevent the overheating control panel fires plaguing Whirlpool and associated brand dishwashers....the culprit circuitry does not fault to ground. The Bosch, etc. models that have overheating power cords? Maybe.
jumper
Senior Member
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I meant I was serious about the rumor or such. Did not say it was gospel or that I agreed.
I do not wire DWs so I ain’t really interested in the back story or substantiation for the code, I just was sayng I am pretty sure there was back room politics/shenanigans involved. Don G I think may have brought it up. Do not remember.
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