rcarroll
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
Yeah, it seems we need a little more info to help you.
loft receptacle placement
- Thread starter benmin
- Start date
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electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Dennis Alwon said:
This is radiant heat in the floor. Doesn't mater if it's water, electric, or nuclear fusion. :grin:
That is one of the issues with cutting in a floor receptacle.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
electricmanscott said:
A wall mounted electric BB unit cannot have a receptacle over top of it. Being that it is in the floor technically it does not matter, code wise, for receptacle placement but if it were an electric unit I would not want the outlet on the far side of the heater for safety issues. It was just a thought.
I know we are beyond the scope of the op's question but it is still an issue I would think about.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Dennis I do not understand.
The entire floor, or at least the large majority of it is the radiant heater.
There is no way to avoid cords crossing the radiant floor heating.
The entire floor, or at least the large majority of it is the radiant heater.
There is no way to avoid cords crossing the radiant floor heating.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Dopey me? Duh I was thinking some sort of radiant baseboard sunk in the floor near the handrail. A recessed heater. Got it now....Thanks
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
You'll need to install the receptacles,
If you have hydronic heating in pored gypcrete then youcan just pick an area and gradually chip it away. when you find a clear spot drill a hole for either a tombstone or a box sized one if you have the space... Just be patient while chipping . I usually take pictures of the floor before covering so we can add things if needed
If you have hydronic heating in pored gypcrete then youcan just pick an area and gradually chip it away. when you find a clear spot drill a hole for either a tombstone or a box sized one if you have the space... Just be patient while chipping . I usually take pictures of the floor before covering so we can add things if needed
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
If you really want to leave the floor intact, just mount a Wiremold receptacle box flat on the floor.`Feed it with Wiremold either on the floor below the railing, or run the Wiremold on the face of the loft, and use a flat L and an outside L to hit the box.
Another possibility, depending on the construction of the railing, is to run the Wiremold on the face or the bottom edge of the railing itself, or if you have a talented carpenter, have a channel routed in the lower rail, and imbed a piece of MC or other cable.
Another possibility, depending on the construction of the railing, is to run the Wiremold on the face or the bottom edge of the railing itself, or if you have a talented carpenter, have a channel routed in the lower rail, and imbed a piece of MC or other cable.
allenwayne
Senior Member
To me if it is a loft then there is a ceiling below it.Drywall is allot easier to cut than a railing or remove flooring.I went through a simular situation a couple of years ago.Loft area at the top of the stairs, basically an entrance to the upper bedrooms.Inspector said it was required to meet spacing along the railing.My argument was that it was a hallway.The truss layout didn`t allow for 6/ 12 layout.Well we lost and had to eat the extra floor outlet
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
allenwayne said:
You should read the question.
allenwayne
Senior Member
electricmanscott said:You should read the question.
My response was about posts past the actual OP posting question.It was brought up about channeling wood ................ etc. I was just commenting it is allot easier to flap some drywall and have it repaired rather than channeling into wood.
- Location
- Massachusetts
allenwayne said:
Allen, yes it would be....but there is no drywall below. It is open, must be like timber frame or something like that.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
No receptacles are needed! 210.52(A)(2)(3) does not address this situation.
Just thought I start my Monday off by being ostracized. :wink:
All I can hope is that at least one person will refrain from saying I am wrong, without at least first looking for the one word, the one key word in that article that makes my case for me. OK, truth be told, it is two words.
Good hunting.
Just thought I start my Monday off by being ostracized. :wink:
All I can hope is that at least one person will refrain from saying I am wrong, without at least first looking for the one word, the one key word in that article that makes my case for me. OK, truth be told, it is two words.
Good hunting.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Okay I'll bite first and take the heat for being wrong. That may make twice wrong in one thread.
Wall Space---- The railing is not a wall. Is that where you are going???? Do I win?? or is it behind one of the other doors?
Wall Space---- The railing is not a wall. Is that where you are going???? Do I win?? or is it behind one of the other doors?
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Sorry Dennis, but thanks for playing. As a reward, I’ll use your new Avatar as the basis for a hint.
The argument that some may wish to use, in a vain effort ( :grin: ) to prove me wrong, is going to be as logical (i.e., not at all) as the following argument:
? Premise One: Cats are common household pets.
? Premise Two: That animal sitting on the grass is a cat.
? Conclusion: That animal is a household pet.
(Edited to revise the sample argument, so that it is more nearly relevant to the point I wish to make.)
The argument that some may wish to use, in a vain effort ( :grin: ) to prove me wrong, is going to be as logical (i.e., not at all) as the following argument:
? Premise One: Cats are common household pets.
? Premise Two: That animal sitting on the grass is a cat.
? Conclusion: That animal is a household pet.
(Edited to revise the sample argument, so that it is more nearly relevant to the point I wish to make.)
Last edited:
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
OK. Time?s up. The answer is: ?room divider.?
Here is my original example (i.e., illogical) argument:
? Premise One: Cats are common household pets.
? Premise Two: That animal sitting on the grass is a cat.
? Conclusion: That animal is a household pet.
Here is the real (also illogical) argument:
? Premise One: Railings are commonly used as room dividers.
? Premise Two: That thing over there is a railing.
? Conclusion: That thing over there is a room divider.
The rule contained in 210.52(A)(2)(3) is that wall space includes space afforded by room dividers. It goes on to say that free-standing bar-type counters are one example of room divider, and that railings is another example of room dividers. That does not mean that every time you see a railing, you are looking at a room divider.
In this case, the railing does not divide floor space into two separate room areas. The room ends at the drop off point, whether or not you put the railing there. Without the railing, there would be no question of that floor line also constituting a ?wall space,? and clearly no need for receptacles. Adding the railing does not create a ?wall space,? because the railing does not comprise a ?room divider.?
The railing serves a safety purpose. It was not placed there in an intention effort to divide a room into two separate areas. In addition, it does not perform the ancillary function of dividing a room as an unintentional result, kind of an on?-the-side result,? of its installation.
Ya?s don?t got no room divider; so? ya?s don?t got no wall space; so?s ya don?t need no receptacles.
QED
Here is my original example (i.e., illogical) argument:
? Premise One: Cats are common household pets.
? Premise Two: That animal sitting on the grass is a cat.
? Conclusion: That animal is a household pet.
Here is the real (also illogical) argument:
? Premise One: Railings are commonly used as room dividers.
? Premise Two: That thing over there is a railing.
? Conclusion: That thing over there is a room divider.
The rule contained in 210.52(A)(2)(3) is that wall space includes space afforded by room dividers. It goes on to say that free-standing bar-type counters are one example of room divider, and that railings is another example of room dividers. That does not mean that every time you see a railing, you are looking at a room divider.
In this case, the railing does not divide floor space into two separate room areas. The room ends at the drop off point, whether or not you put the railing there. Without the railing, there would be no question of that floor line also constituting a ?wall space,? and clearly no need for receptacles. Adding the railing does not create a ?wall space,? because the railing does not comprise a ?room divider.?
The railing serves a safety purpose. It was not placed there in an intention effort to divide a room into two separate areas. In addition, it does not perform the ancillary function of dividing a room as an unintentional result, kind of an on?-the-side result,? of its installation.
Ya?s don?t got no room divider; so? ya?s don?t got no wall space; so?s ya don?t need no receptacles.
QED
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Sorry I had to go out for awhile.
I can counter that argument a bit-- even if it is to no end. Believe it or not that was my second choice but I thought the reasoning may be flawed.
210.52 (A)(2)(3) -- the space afforded by fixed room dividers such as free standing bar type counters or railings.
This is an example of a room divider and to my mind does not exclude railngs as a wall space.
(A)(2)(1) says any space 2' or more in width....
Is a railing a space??? I believe it would be for the simple fact that you can put furniture in front of it and use it as if it were a standard wall.
Regardless of what I think the article says any space 2'---- I have to disagree with you and I think I have some support in my argument.
Your turn to counter if you wish.
This is a little bit like the OCP in closets where it says places like clothes closets..... At least a similar argument.
I can counter that argument a bit-- even if it is to no end. Believe it or not that was my second choice but I thought the reasoning may be flawed.
210.52 (A)(2)(3) -- the space afforded by fixed room dividers such as free standing bar type counters or railings.
This is an example of a room divider and to my mind does not exclude railngs as a wall space.
(A)(2)(1) says any space 2' or more in width....
Is a railing a space??? I believe it would be for the simple fact that you can put furniture in front of it and use it as if it were a standard wall.
Regardless of what I think the article says any space 2'---- I have to disagree with you and I think I have some support in my argument.
Your turn to counter if you wish.
This is a little bit like the OCP in closets where it says places like clothes closets..... At least a similar argument.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Perhaps the customer would like a receptacle here.:smile:
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
Yea, but that's a cope out answer.LOL
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
I have sorta this same situation coming up, an open stairwell with a handrail and pickets, so do I need to install floor receptacles in front of it? The railing is over 12' long, I know my boss is going to want to call this a hallway, but in my mind it is not, but then again I haven't seen a definition of a hallway yet...
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
I wish.Dennis Alwon said:
The only thing that (A)(2)(1) does is to let us know a space under 2? wide does not count. At this point in the narrative, it is still talking about wall spaces in simple English terms. There is no formal definition, so we follow the generally accepted meaning. That would tell us that a ?wall space? is a space with a wall. It is not until (A)(2)(2) and (A)(2)(3) that we learn that the code authors want to include areas that are not commonly thought of as ?walls,? in their rules about receptacles in ?wall spaces.?Dennis Alwon said:
I do not exclude railing as a wall space. What I do is allow for the possibility that there will be some railings that are not wall space. Some cats (but not all cats) are household pets. Some railings (but not all railings) are fixed room dividers.Dennis Alwon said:
The rule is about room dividers. The space ?afforded by? room dividers is included in the ?wall space? in which receptacles are required. But what about the space ?afforded by? a railing that does not divide the room?
No. But the question is not relevant. A railing is a wooden object that occupies space.Dennis Alwon said:
Do you mean to ask, ?Does installation of a railing establish a ?wall space,? such that receptacles are required along the railing? If so, I would answer ?no? for this particular example, because there is no space that is ?afforded by fixed room dividers.?
Agreed.Dennis Alwon said:
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