Lowe's guy wouldn't sell a FPE to a customer

[iwire]

you assume much.

I have a lot to work with.

 

[mark32]

Everyone has made some good points, I commend the Lowes guy as well for making the HO aware of his attempted blunder but as Iwire mentioned you can't stop a customer from buying such supplies. The HD in which I work has a policy against locking up pricey items like meters, breakers and tools, thus I have no control over what some guy wishes to steal or buy. Of course if asked I give them my opinion, most take the advice but some will do what they came to do. A few examples from this week made by guys in the field and not DIY's.

1) Guy wanted #2 al ser to feed a sub and protect it with a 100a breaker
2) Guy wanted 6/3 al and protect it with a 60a breaker
3) Guy wanted and made me cut him 10/2 nm and then tell me it's for a dryer, a 4 prong at that!

 

[480sparky]

I agree, you can buy a car, motorcycle, boat, chain saw or even a gun and have no knowledge of how to safely use any of them. The customer accepts responsibility for their use at the time of purchase.

A homeowner is considered fully qualified by law to do work on their own home, the only qualification necessary is that they own the home.

HOs are also qualified to hire lawyers to sue the pants off anyone they care to.

Shoot, all of us here might be involved in a lawsuit in a couple years from now just because we're discussing the incident. We're liable because we're trained professionals who easily recognized the hazard this poor schmuck was putting himself in and we stood by and did nothing to protect him.

 

[steelersman]

.

1) Guy wanted #2 al ser to feed a sub and protect it with a 100a breaker

I honestly see nothing wrong with that

 

[480sparky]

I honestly see nothing wrong with that

T310.16 and 110.14(c).

 

[Minuteman]

Understood.

I know my post was bit over the top but I think the point is there. :smile:

I am willing to bet Minuteman would be very upset if he went to buy anything he was legally allowed to and was refused by the store clerk based on that clerks personal opinion.

Ding, Ding, Ding we have a winner!

From my pseudonym, you may detect that I'm the Patriotic sort. I'm all about my rights. I've never been to Boston, but if taxes go sky high, I'll be there dumping tea.

I did not actually witness the refused sale, just the conversation between the Manager and salesman. Customer must have tipped off the manager, because he struck up the conversation with the salesman. But there wasn't any rebuke.

However, let it be known. I was only reporting the Lowe's FPE story out of surprise. I would have never guessed it.

 

[Minuteman]

I would also like to think, that if the same customer wanted the 18/2 that I was buying, so that he could wire it to the 30 amp FPE (replacement, Connecticut Electric Breaker) then a sales guy would at the very least give the customer some advice and point him to some #10.

 

[jaylectricity]

Well that is pretty sad to throw away our rights.




And if it was you that a simple store clerk refused to sell something to you would raise the roof.

Very hypocritical.

For the most part I agree with iwire about giving away our rights. It would be better if the salesman just strongly suggested to the customer that he was risking burning his house down. If the customer persisted, then you give him the product and say, "Don't say I didn't warn you."

Now how can we remove the restrictions on minors buying spray paint?

 

[steelersman]

T310.16 and 110.14(c).

yes I have a hard time with this. I've installed a few sub-panels fed by a 100 amp breader and #2 AL SER before and never got rejected. Maybe the 2002 or 2005 ampacity tables permitted this, but not sure.

 

[peter d]

Maybe the 2002 or 2005 ampacity tables permitted this, but not sure.

Kinda, under the old code rules it required a 90 amp breaker, although admittedly I've never seen one installed.

 

[steelersman]

Kinda, under the old code rules it required a 90 amp breaker, although admittedly I've never seen one installed.

well then it must be the same in 08 code as per 310.16 it would need to be on a 90 amp breaker.

 

[peter d]

well then it must be the same in 08 code as per 310.16 it would need to be on a 90 amp breaker.

But now SE cables must be derated to a 60C ampacity, just like NM cable.

 

[steelersman]

But now SE cables must be derated to a 60C ampacity, just like NM cable.

say what? Where does it say that?

 

[peter d]

say what? Where does it say that?

In the NEC. :roll:

Just kidding. See 338.10(B)(4), which directs us to 334.80. 2008.

 

[steelersman]

In the NEC. :roll:

Just kidding. See 338.10(B)(4), which directs us to 334.80. 2008.

Man this is difficult to follow for me. I hate how the code sends you to another section and then another and it seems like it never ends and then there are exceptions and yada yada yada....

 

[iwire]

I hate how the code sends you to another section and then another

I hear you and I agree it can be a pain, but if they had to keep repeating the same code sections over and over in each Article the code book would be in 10 books.

One thing I do, if I think I found the answer quick I assume I am wrong and look harder.

 

[mdshunk]

If I was the clerk, I'd sell the guy whatever he wanted. I'd also feel that I'd have the additional professional responsibility to inform him of the peril he might put himself in.

On a side note, Wal Mart won't sell my children spray paint for an art project. They also won't sell my oldest son, a shotgunning enthusiast, Shotgun News magazine. He goes to the local drugstore for the magazine, and the kids go to the corner hardware for spray paint. The one clerk at the hardware store, who is also my around-the-corner neighbor, made it a point to tell my wife that one of the kids was in one day buying a lot of spray paint. Good for her.

When I was a teenager, teens couldn't buy Robotussin DM.

 

[480sparky]

.....They also won't sell my oldest son, a shotgunning enthusiast, Shotgun News magazine.....

Of course not. Too much liability if he gets a paper cut.

Man this is difficult to follow for me. I hate how the code sends you to another section and then another and it seems like it never ends and then there are exceptions and yada yada yada....

 

[Rockyd]

Got to love capitalism in America! If you refuse to sell him the breaker, he goes down the street and gets one. Your off the hook for liability, but lost a sale, revenue, and a customer!

I don't want anyone to stop me from buying anything I can legally buy, I will determine what is best for me. Lawyers should be on a short leash. how can a person be found guily by as the court definition of a "jury of our peers"? Anyone ever hear of 12 electricians on a jury, let alone ever agree on ANYTHING?!

So where does liabity, vs untrained HO's rights? The salesman should have stuck with selling him the item. The can of worms was opened when he inquired about said item. Without knowledge of actual situation, not even a contractor wants to go to far out on a limb (This is when I want to be rolling towards the problem saying I'll be there in a minute), but still lure in a new customer. At that point, it is the HO's right to measure the contractor, or his employee. Good thing we have a forum to work it out in

 

[peter d]

If I was the clerk, I'd sell the guy whatever he wanted. I'd also feel that I'd have the additional professional responsibility to inform him of the peril he might put himself in.

When I worked for a supply house we would sell whatever people asked for, but were forbidden to give out any advice per company policy. This was especially challenging for me because I knew people were buying stuff that was totally wrong based on the way they were describing things, but I kept my mouth shut most of the time. Occasionally I would just give them the part based on their project description and send them on their way.

This was a problem with wire cuts too. If they asked for a wire cut I made sure to tell them it was non-returnable if they got it wrong.