Lowe's guy wouldn't sell a FPE to a customer

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mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
My opinion... if you sell him the thing anyhow with a verbal warning, you're off the hook liability-wise. Realistically, I don't see box store clerks getting involved in lawsuits in the near future, but if I was one of the well paid "pros" at one of these places, I'd have some minimum form of professional liability insurance.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Shoot, all of us here might be involved in a lawsuit in a couple years from now just because we're discussing the incident. We're liable because we're trained professionals who easily recognized the hazard this poor schmuck was putting himself in and we stood by and did nothing to protect him.


I don't think so. This incident happen in Oklahoma and as far as I know I'm not "qualified" to do anything in the state of Oklahoma other than voice my opinion just like any other citizen. I'm not even qualified to drive in that state ( other than as a visitor, if I move there I would have to get a local driver's license). ), if I were to pruchase a hunting or fishing license I quess I would be qualified for that.

That homeowner that everyone is talking about has more legal rights to do electrical work in that state than most of us because we don't even own a house there. He at least has the legal right to do work in his own home.

When you exercise the right to work on your own home then you assume all the responsibility for performing the work in a safe manner. Just like anyone else, if you go out and get some BS advice this does not eliminate that responsibility.

Sure he is useing the wrong breaker and may burn his house down but he is the one that hooked up the dryer and I'm willing to bet that running a new circuit would require a permit and an inspection.

He may not like but he is the electrician for that job and the state has determined that he is fully qualified ( legally).

Qualified: meeting all legal requirements.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
He may not like but he is the electrician for that job and the state has determined that he is fully qualified ( legally).

My municipality is one of a several cities which refuse to get involved in property sales. They won't permit it or send out home inspectors.

They told me home sales --the most hazardous product liability in my world-- is a private matter between buyers and mortgage insurance. When I asked, where do I get a private inspector, building official just shrugged his shoulders. Unbelievable!
 
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Im going have to agree with others on this, The Lowes clerk was WRONG to not sell the guy/girl the breaker. As someone pointed out they just probably went to home depot and kept their mouth shut and bought it there.

I believe a h.o. has the right to buy whatever they want(thats legal) under law, and they would be held liable if their own house burnt down.

I would say I would be VERY upset if a clerk refuse to sell something to me, and personallly I think it would be a violation of rights to do so, or at least liable in civil court.

I remember when I was trying to purchase a 'gas' heater for my place and the distributor would not sell it to me cause i was not a 'license' gas installer/retailer.
This was not a 'legal' issue, but I think more of a 'contract' issue. I was upset and instead I had Home depot buy it from THEM and I bought it from Home depot, no questions asked.

I was confident in my ability to put this in (probably more so than some installers cause I searched the codes AND had a homeowners PERMIT pulled and INSPECTED and APPROVED), but aparently someone/clerk thought otherwise.

The point im making is that you cant police everyone. I remember I had a old thread where I thought I should have said something to a customer that was getting Wrong info on electrical at a homedepot from a clerk, but I didnt. check it out good read.


Should ive had said something??
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=95078
 

tonyou812

Senior Member
Location
North New Jersey
no, but you may need to purchase E&O insurance, or maybe GL. My wife is only a nurse, covered by her employer's insurance, but she still has to buy her own malpractice insurance to keep her employers insurance from coming after her if anything bad happens.

interesting...my wife is a nurse too and my two buddies wives are nurses too, someone should do a poll on what their spouses do . And she has her own liability insurance too.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
interesting...my wife is a nurse too and my two buddies wives are nurses too, someone should do a poll on what their spouses do . And she has her own liability insurance too.
That was done a couple years back on another electrician board, and nurse and teacher were tied for #1.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
At least two of my immediate co-workers have nurses for wives and a couple of more work in the business end of health care.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
My municipality is one of a several cities which refuse to get involved in property sales. They won't permit it or send out home inspectors.

They told me home sales --the most hazardous product liability in my world-- is a private matter between buyers and mortgage insurance. When I asked, where do I get a private inspector, building official just shrugged his shoulders. Unbelievable!

there isn't any money in it for them. that has a lot to do with it.
the main thing is generating revenue.

where i live, the municipal trash service notifies the building department
of every trash dumpster delivery. 2 hours after the bin drops, the city
inspector is driving by, checking if work is being done, and if there is an
open ticket on the address... if there isn't..... "HI, i'm from the building
department..... is that a kitchen remodel you are doing? you are going
to go down today and pull a permit for that, aren't you? yes? good....
of course i KNEW you were, but i just thought i'd ask in passing.... here's
my card, and the number on the bottom is where you call to schedule
your inspections.... have a nice day...... :D

they purchase new satellite overheads weekly, and when you go to
pull a permit on a fence or something, they look at where you say
you are going to put the fence, and then page back a few weeks to
see what was there before, if you've already demo'ed it.

i went down to pull a permit for one of my customers who had gotten
caught putting in 2x4 drop in's without a permit, and by the time the
permit fees, plan check fees, and admiinistrative penalties for working
without a permit were added up, the total fees were about $700.

for 18 drop in's in a t bar ceiling.

then there was the engineered drawing preparation, the engineer's stamp,
the title 24 load calcs on the entire structure, none of which would have
been necessary if a permit had been pulled before hand, as a minimal
remodel.

another $2,000
getting caught is 'spensive.

then, there is the inspector adding things he wants to see done that
aren't even in the scope of work, adding another couple days labor
and material to the project.... another couple thousand added.

most people doing home remodels around here have no idea of the
additional costs that will occur if they are caught doing work unpermitted.
i ended up getting a final for a lady down in the harbor who'd been fighting
with the building department for 4 1/2 *years* trying to get a final on a
kitchen remodel.

this is NOT the place to become the poster child for code enforcement.
you can run, but you can't hide.
 

wawireguy

Senior Member
I'd just have told the guy. That wire isn't rated for use with this breaker and you should not use it for that application. Can't protect people from stupidity.

And I do think that the Lowes and Home Depot employees give way to much advice. I think referencing a install book or a code section is as far as I'd want to go. Quote the 60 degree column for ampacity and leave it at that. You can tell people how to do stuff till your blue in the face but that doesn't mean they are going to do a safe/compliant install.
 
the 20a FPE was tripping? must be defective....
It was an accident... we all know that FPEs do not trip... :grin:

:D

I can't speak about Lowe's, but I know the Home Depot stores have been shelling out a pretty good penny to get qualified guys in their electrical aisle. I pity those guys, for liability's sake, but they're offering right around 25 bucks an hour for licensed electricians to work at HD. Not bad scratch, really, for all the more you have to do.
In Colorado Springs, there are 5 stores. 4 have licensed master electricians... they wear a big button that says: "Electrical Expert" on their apron. Here in town, they do make about $25 / hr. I know all 4 of the master electricians. I get to the point that they "refer" work to me... And I have never heard of them having an issue in getting their pay.

Absolutely. Who ever heard of an FPE tripping? :D
Like I said earlier: I was just an accident... it won't happen again! :grin:

I've seen licensed builders behind Big Box pro desks too, peddling 5-10% discounts for volume, & free deliveries. The strategy could be setting up the dart board; shift litigation from corporate scum to licensed professionals on the floor.
I was hoping that things wouldn't turn that way. As stated earlier, people go after deep pockets first, which means you lost your job, but it would be kinda hard to play: He said - she said, when legalities are involved. Besides, if you do not draw a plan, it can always be construed as mis-interpretation. (At least I hope so!)
 
...1) Guy wanted #2 al ser to feed a sub and protect it with a 100a breaker...
I do not see a problem with this... provided it is residentail work.

I honestly see nothing wrong with that
Neither do I

T310.16 and 110.14(c).
This may not apply.


Table 310.15(B)(6) Conductor Types and Sizes for
120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and

Feeders. Conductor Types RHH, RHW, RHW-2, THHN,
THHW, THW, THW-2, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW,
XHHW-2, SE, USE, USE-2
Conductor (AWG or kcmil)
Service or Feeder
Rating (Amperes) Copper
Aluminum or
Copper-Clad
Aluminum


100 4 2

Sorry, my copy / paste of table 310.15(b)(6) did not come out well.
Since this is a sub, that makes the wires feeders...
My intrepretation anyway. I may be wrong.​

 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I do not see a problem with this... provided it is residential work.

If it is a feeder to a sub panel it is likely a violation.


Since this is a sub, that makes the wires feeders...
My intrepretation anyway. I may be wrong.

I agree it is a feeder but it is not 'the main power feeder' unless it carries 100% of the dwelling units load.

If the feeder does not carry 100% of the dwelling units load you can not use Table 310.15(B)(6).
 

ultramegabob

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
I dont think it is the job of a supply house worker to police what people are buying or what they do with it once they purchase it....


interesting...my wife is a nurse too and my two buddies wives are nurses too, someone should do a poll on what their spouses do . And she has her own liability insurance too.

my wife is a nurse, and my one of my former employers wife was a nurse also...
 
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ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
..when I was trying to purchase a 'gas' heater for my place and the distributor would not sell it to me cause i was not a 'license' gas installer/retailer. ..instead I had Home depot buy it from THEM and I bought it from Home depot, no questions asked.

This trick may also works for AC systems, if you can convince Home Cheepo that you are the qualified installer.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
the main thing is generating revenue. ..this is NOT the place to become the poster child for code enforcement.

With some of the most conservative permit laws in the county, excluded by Uniform Administrative Code, I thought Huntington Beach was hack heaven.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=659292&postcount=35

Perhaps this Uniform Admin. Code is the bait, switched from the taste of conservative independence to Liberal enforcement, as the bin Lawry reports everybody to the city.
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
I don't think so. This incident happen in Oklahoma and as far as I know I'm not "qualified" to do anything in the state of Oklahoma other than voice my opinion just like any other citizen. I'm not even qualified to drive in that state ( other than as a visitor, if I move there I would have to get a local driver's license). ), if I were to pruchase a hunting or fishing license I quess I would be qualified for that.

You would need to get an non-resident hunting or fishing license. And, I would hire you as an apprentice. Would $12 per hour be okay? :grin:
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
You would need to get an non-resident hunting or fishing license. And, I would hire you as an apprentice. Would $12 an hour be OK. :grin:

Beats the heck out of the last job offer. They offered to pay me what I'm worth and I informed them that's I don't work for anyone that cheap. :D:D
 

wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
:D Understood.

I know my post was bit over the top but I think the point is there. :smile:

I am willing to bet Minuteman would be very upset if he went to buy anything he was legally allowed to and was refused by the store clerk based on that clerks personal opinion.

Since this is not a forum for political comment I shall bite my tongue on what was passed by Congress a few days ago. But it sure falls into the kind of stuff that a clerk's personal opinion is based on. There goes a whole bunch more "rights!":mad:
 
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