Max number of recepts per circuit

[colosparker]

Roger,
Article 100 gives you the definition of the AHJ.

 

[colosparker]

Iwire,
I work for a public owner as a quality assurance inspector. I don't make rules. I make specifications. The jurisdiction I work in is covered by the state and the state electrical board. They have adopted the 2005 NEC.

Dave

 

[colosparker]

Roger,

BTW. Before I would start any job, I would make sure I know all of the local codes. I would accept an inspectors call if it made sense. This, after all, is very much a common sense discussion. If I wired 4 rooms on one circuit and the electrical inspector called me on it. I would probably spend the extra money to pull another homerun and add another breaker before I would waste time arguing the point with the electrical board.
With all due respect, just because the NEC doesn't set a limit on something, this does not make it "unlimited". IMO

Dave

 

[roger]

Dave, all due respect back, it certainly sounds as though you are letting an inspector (you if the shoe fits) use what ever his/her wants, or wishes was code, be a design guideline for your installations or installations you are inspecting doesn't it?

The bottom line is, I don't have this problem in the areas I work in and I can (if I choose to) install as many receptacles as I want on a residential circuit.

There may be an interpretation difference from one jurisdiction to another, such as if buried conduit or cable per 300.5 is measured from top of soil or average height of grass, (that was only for an example, not literal) but all in all, we all get to work under the same adopted code state wide.

The local inspectors don't enforce self made rules.

I would accept an inspectors call if it made sense.

I would only accept an inspectors call if it were backed up by a formal code, and a violation was cited per NEC article and section or other applicable code such as local seismic issues.

Roger

 

[scwirenut]

Iwire,
I work for a public owner as a quality assurance inspector. I don't make rules. I make specifications. The jurisdiction I work in is covered by the state and the state electrical board. They have adopted the 2005 NEC.

Dave

scenario: I come to your town, after proper licensing, wire up a house using as many recepts on a circuit as I wish, you red tag me, I then go to your state electrical board with paperwork from (A) CMP member and IAEC (B) my financial atorney (cause your holding up my XXXX job), after review by your state electrical board you go back home with your hat in one hand and hopefully a code book in the other. I have delt with inspectors like your kind many times this exact way. YOU ARE NOT THE LAW, you only enforce it

 

[peter d]

Peter,

You bet. A local AHJ can and do make their own rules. Again, the NEC is only a minimum standard.

I'm glad you don't inspect in my area. We have enough trouble with inspectors allready who make up their own rules. :roll:

 

[scwirenut]

Roger,

I would accept an inspectors call if it made sense. This, after all, is very much a common sense discussion.

Dave

I wouldnt and dont, there are many educated and aware inspectors and I applaud them, however there are 10 times as many they dont know nothing, sometime I dont know how they feed themselfs with a spoon and fork, A inspectors call has nothing to do with making sense or not, it has to do with the NEC.

please do not think I am attacking you cause im not, Im only attacking your views on the subject of an inspectors power. Im sure outside of the badge we could hangout and have fun, but put on that badge and you better show me something in writing.

 

[dlhoule]

Colosparker:

Some of them wanted 14 opening on a circuit, I remember a few that would only allow 10 openings. You knew the rules before you wired the homes.

Are these inspectors allowing 10 or 14 receptacles when using a single receptacle and 40 or 56 if using 4 receptacle per opening?

 

[colosparker]

Colosparker:

Some of them wanted 14 opening on a circuit, I remember a few that would only allow 10 openings. You knew the rules before you wired the homes.

Are these inspectors allowing 10 or 14 receptacles when using a single receptacle and 40 or 56 if using 4 receptacle per opening?

Larry in Michigan,

It really depends. First off, keep in mind I am refering to a time when I wired homes, which was the 70's early 80's. Back then an electrical inspector would require the general lighting load circuit to be evenly divided throughout the dwelling. I wired alot of 1500-2000 sq. ft. track homes in many different jurisdictions. When you divide up the required number of general lighting branch cicuits in this size dwelling you usually come up with a number between 10-20 outlets per circuit.


The same holds true where I live and work today. This isn't rocket science. This is a common sense thing and most electrical inspectors can and will red tag an "installation" they feel does not meet the best interest of the consumer. I do not care what the NEC says, it is still only a minimum standard.IMO A local governing body, such as an AHJ, has every right to protect the consumers of their city, county, state.

I don't see this as being a real issue. Most electrical contractors use common sense when wiring homes.

 

[peter d]

A local governing body, such as an AHJ, has every right to protect the consumers of their city, county, state.

So we should be led to believe that your state has in its constitution provisions to allow governmental authorities to make rules as they see fit?

"Prtotecting consumers" is pretty broad and could be taken to the extreme. Where do you draw the line? You could take that to its logical conclusion by banning the use of electricity completely, because that is in the best interest of the consumer.

 

[iwire]

A local governing body, such as an AHJ, has every right to protect the consumers of their city, county, state.

They may actually be required as part of their job to protect the consumer.

However that can only use the rules that are in writing to do so.

Just as a District Attorney can not prosecute a know criminal without certain standards being met.

No governing body, such as an AHJ, has the right to make rules on the fly.

 

[colosparker]

A local governing body, such as an AHJ, has every right to protect the consumers of their city, county, state.

So we should be led to believe that your state has in its constitution provisions to allow governmental authorities to make rules as they see fit?

"Prtotecting consumers" is pretty broad and could be taken to the extreme. Where do you draw the line? You could take that to its logical conclusion by banning the use of electricity completely, because that is in the best interest of the consumer.

What are you talking about?? Constitution? Ever hear of local ordinances?
Yup, they can make rules all they want. They can tell you how long your grass can be in your front yard. They can tell you how to build the roof on your house. They can even tell you how to wire a dwelling above and beyond any codes in the NEC.

Yes, today we limit the number of outlets on a branch cicuit in a dwelling, and next we start banning electricity. We don't want anyone to get hurt by a bad electrical installation. :wink:

 

[peter d]

What are you talking about?? Constitution? Ever hear of local ordinances?
Yup, they can make rules all they want. They can tell you how long your grass can be in your front yard. They can tell you how to build the roof on your house. They can even tell you how to wire a dwelling above and beyond any codes in the NEC.

So what is it then?

What does "local ordinance" mean to you?

To me, it means a WRITTEN LAW or WRITTEN ammendment to the NEC in the case of the electrical code.

You seem to be saying that an inspector can make up a rule that does not exist in a law book.

If you are not enforcing a written law, you are enforcing your own preference, and that is unconstitutional IMO.

 

[iwire]

Ever hear of local ordinances?

None of here dispute a local areas right and ability to make a written ordinance.

What we do dispute is that an inspector or AHJ can look at installation see something they do not like and fail the job with out a code section or local ordinance to back up that decision.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Colosparker
Is there a way you can provide a writen copy of these local ordinances you are speaking of? Maybe a URL link to the page the municipality has them on.
I would be interested to see what you have to follow that seems so different than most other municipalities.

What is the area(s) you are working in?

 

[roger]

Pierre, I have a feeling Colosparker is talking about making his own rules, and I don't expect to see him post a link to a formal written code limiting dwelling unit receptacles. :wink:

Maybe he'll surprise me. :roll:

Roger

 

[colosparker]

Pierre, I have a feeling Colosparker is talking about making his own rules, and I don't expect to see him post a link to a formal written code limiting dwelling unit receptacles. :wink:

Maybe he'll surprise me. :roll:

Roger

Roger,
There is no "formal written code limiting dwelling unit receptacles". I never said such a thing. We are talking about an inspectors authority to approve an installation. I have refered to a number used by inspectors on the limit of openings (outlets) on a general lighting branch circuit, which includes receptacles.

I'm not going to argue some silly notion that an electrician can put 200 receptacles in the same room on one circuit. I'm talking the real world of electrical installations.
These are the guidelines for the Pikes Peak region where I reside.
http://www.pprbd.org/contfiles/ELECResidentialGuidelines05.pdf


Heres the Regional Building Code, which gives the local electrical board authority:
http://www.pprbd.org/codes/2005PPRBC.9.15.05-b.pdf

The inspector has the right to approve an installation.

As I said before, I don't make my own rules. I make specifications for a public owner. :wink:


BTW. What is it you do for a living?

 

[colosparker]

Ever hear of local ordinances?

None of here dispute a local areas right and ability to make a written ordinance.

What we do dispute is that an inspector or AHJ can look at installation see something they do not like and fail the job with out a code section or local ordinance to back up that decision.

Bob,
Would you dispute the fact that an inspector can approve an installation based on the AHJ's interpretation of the NEC, which is all I am saying.

 

[colosparker]

What are you talking about?? Constitution? Ever hear of local ordinances?
Yup, they can make rules all they want. They can tell you how long your grass can be in your front yard. They can tell you how to build the roof on your house. They can even tell you how to wire a dwelling above and beyond any codes in the NEC.

So what is it then?

What does "local ordinance" mean to you?

To me, it means a WRITTEN LAW or WRITTEN ammendment to the NEC in the case of the electrical code.

You seem to be saying that an inspector can make up a rule that does not exist in a law book.

If you are not enforcing a written law, you are enforcing your own preference, and that is unconstitutional IMO.

Peter,

Would you agree that laws (codes, ordinances) are subject to interpretation? Isn't that why we have juries, and AHJ's? The NEC addresses the fact that the AHJ has the right to interpret the code. As a contractor, you have the right to dispute their interpretation. IMO, it's a process that keeps everything civilized.

Never really thought of an electrical code as being a Constitutuional right.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

colosparker,

There is no "formal written code limiting dwelling unit receptacles". I never said such a thing. We are talking about an inspectors authority to approve an installation.

If that is the case you cannot legally enforce a limit on the number of receptacles on a circuit.

The inspector has the right to approve an installation.

That does not include making up rules.

As I said before, I don't make my own rules. I make specifications for a public owner.

If such specifications have not been published and adopted by the AHJ they are not legally enforceable.
You, personally, and the AHJ could be sued for malicious prosecution if you are enforcing unpublished rules.
Don