Max number of recepts per circuit

[colosparker]

Don,

The NEC is a minimum standard when used as a legal document. The NEC states in it's own document that the codes are subject to interpretation by the AHJ. So how do you figure a AHJ can be sued for "malicious prosecution"?

 

[peter d]

Never really thought of an electrical code as being a Constitutuional right.

That's not what I meant at all. Our country is based on the rule of law. An inspector that makes up rules, not matter how insignificant that may seem, is acting outside of the bounds of the Constitution.

An inspector has no right to require more than the NEC, just as I have to no right to install less than the NEC.

 

[peter d]

Peter,

Would you agree that laws (codes, ordinances) are subject to interpretation?.

To an extent. Certainly, this forum proves that the NEC is hard to understand sometimes, but most of it is cut and dry.

But if the sign says "Speed Limit: 65" and I'm doing 80, there's not much need to interpret the law there.

Likewise, there is nothing in the NEC that restricts the number of outlets on a residential branch circuit, or limits a branch circuit to a certain number of square feet, so there is nothing to interpret.

 

[charlie b]

I'm getting into this one late, and I'm almost afraid to read through the entire thread. So my comments might be out of context. However, I did feel compelled to respond to this statement:

The NEC is a minimum standard when used as a legal document. The NEC states in it's own document that the codes are subject to interpretation by the AHJ.

Interpreting a rule is not the same as inventing your own rule. What the NEC means by saying it is a minimum standard is that the owner (or the electrician, acting on behalf of the owner) is free to choose to do more than the NEC requires. That is not the same as giving the AHJ the authority to demand more than the NEC requires.

So how do you figure a AHJ can be sued for "malicious prosecution"?

In this country, anybody can sue anybody else for any reason. If you step beyond your authority, and if that costs me money, then I might consider suing you to recover the money you cost me.

 

[charlie b]

But if the sign says "Speed Limit: 65" and I'm doing 80, there's not much need to interpret the law there.

Interesting analogy, in that it opens the door to another way of looking at things.

Suppose I want to drive 30 mph on a highway that has a speed limit (NB: an upper limit) of 65. Am I in violation of the law? I might be if there were a posted minimum speed, as you sometimes do see on highways. But what if there were no minimum speed? Can I be ticketed by a police officer who believed I was driving so slowly that it posed a danger to other drivers? I think so, and I believe the officer would be acting within his authority.

But I do not believe an electrical inspector would be acting within his or her authority to impose a limit on the number of receptacles in a dwelling unit's branch circuit, given that that limit is not imposed by the NEC or by any local ordinance.

So what is the difference between the two situations? The difference is a concern over safety of human life. If I design a house and if I put 50 receptacles on a 20 amp circuit, is there a danger to human life? I think not. There is, I admit, a risk that the owner will become annoyed, when that circuit keeps tripping. But the NEC explicitly states that it does not provide any assurance that the owner will be happy.

 

[dlhoule]

As I said before, I don't make my own rules. I make specifications for a public owner.

Come on guys, if he is making specs, he can do it any way he wants to.
And if the local inspector is enforcing as spec'ed it can be enforced legally.

Now having said that: In his profile he states that he is an inspector. So, I really don't know what to make of his stance. :?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Larry,

And if the local inspector is enforcing as spec'ed it can be enforced legally.

I understand that is true in some states, but in general the inspector can only enforce the adopted code. The enforcement of the specs is the job of the owner or his representative.
Don

 

[roger]

Colosparker,

Roger,
There is no "formal written code limiting dwelling unit receptacles".

just as I thought. :lol:

We are talking about an inspectors authority to approve an installation.

No, you are talking about making up rules.

I'm not going to argue some silly notion that an electrician can put 200 receptacles in the same room on one circuit.

Well quit arguing, it is allowed per the NEC as much as you dislike it.

These are the guidelines for the Pikes Peak region where I reside.
http://www.pprbd.org/contfiles/ELECResidentialGuidelines05.pdf

There is nothing in there that addresses the number of receptacles on a circuit.

Heres the Regional Building Code, which gives the local electrical board authority:
http://www.pprbd.org/codes/2005PPRBC.9.15.05-b.pdf

You really should read the information in the preface of that Building Code taking note of the Local Code and Adoption Process

Here is an excerpt for you.

Proposed modifications to this Code may be made in writing to the Building Department during the official comment
period. Comments are forwarded to the appropriate advisory committee for consideration. The advisory committees
then undertake a review process of each proposed code involving committee meetings and one or more public
hearings before making recommendation to the Board of Review for each proposed code.
The Board of Review then holds their own session of review and public hearing before making final recommendation
of a new Pikes Peak Regional Building Code to the participating jurisdictions.
Each Jurisdiction has the final authority regarding proposed code content prior to adoption. The Code becomes enforceable when each Jurisdiction legally adopts the Code by resolution or ordinance.

The inspector has the right to approve an installation.

More correctly, the inspector has a duty to approve the installation per the adopted code, he can't require anything above the adopted code, see the excerpt again. :wink:

You may want to rethink your stance. :lol:

BTW, I am a Project manager for a pretty decent size contractor.

Roger

 

[colosparker]

I'm getting into this one late, and I'm almost afraid to read through the entire thread. So my comments might be out of context. However, I did feel compelled to respond to this statement:

The NEC is a minimum standard when used as a legal document. The NEC states in it's own document that the codes are subject to interpretation by the AHJ.

Interpreting a rule is not the same as inventing your own rule. What the NEC means by saying it is a minimum standard is that the owner (or the electrician, acting on behalf of the owner) is free to choose to do more than the NEC requires. That is not the same as giving the AHJ the authority to demand more than the NEC requires.

So how do you figure a AHJ can be sued for "malicious prosecution"?

In this country, anybody can sue anybody else for any reason. If you step beyond your authority, and if that costs me money, then I might consider suing you to recover the money you cost me.

Charlie,

When I say interpret the code. I refer to the areas of the code that are liable to interpretation. The code is specific on lots of things. Some areas of the code are not so specific. That is why the code is written as such. Should there be a question on any issue the AHJ has a right to make a determination. That is not to say that the contractor cannot dispute the interpretation by the AHJ. The economics are usually such that it makes more sense to comply than it does to take the matter to the governing board. As for "suing". I agree, anybody can sue anybody or any governmental body. So now you get attorneys involved over a dispute on number of outlets on a general lighting branch circuit in a residence.

Give me a good argument why you think the number of outlets is unlimited per the NEC on this type of branch circuit in a dwelling. Tell me where it says the number is unlimited in the NEC? Who sets the limit? The contractor? The local AHJ? Whose job is it to protect the consumer from the economic consequences of a poor installation? What happens when a electrical contractor goes out of business and is not around to fix his/her bad installation? Why shouldn't the AHJ have the right to protect the consumers in their community from a poor installation, even if has nothing to do with safety and is more a "design issue" or at most an "inconvenience".?

I realise you are coming late in the discussion. My questions are directed towards anyone that can give me an answer.

Respectfully,
Dave

 

[roger]

Colosparker,

Tell me where it says the number is unlimited in the NEC?

tell us where the number is limited.

The short truth is that the NEC is a permissive code, this means if it's not prohibited, it is allowed.

Roger

 

[colosparker]

Roger,

A project manager. Have you ever wired a house? Have you ever dealt with an inspector on your electrical installation?

My experience comes from 26 years in the electrical trade. I have wired approximately 2000 dwellings over the years in countless jurisdictions. I respect your opinions, but I won't change my "stance" until you can give me a decent argument.

An AHJ can make reasonable interpretations of the NEC. I added the word "reasonable". What part of that do you not agree with?

Dave

 

[peter d]

Roger,

Have you ever dealt with an inspector on your electrical installation?

Yeah, Roger is just a newbie. He has never dealt with an inspector in his life. :lol: :lol:

 

[colosparker]

Colosparker,

Tell me where it says the number is unlimited in the NEC?

tell us where the number is limited.

The short truth is that the NEC is a permissive code, this means if it's not prohibited, it is allowed.

Roger

Roger,

I told you. The number can be limited by an inspector, whose has the right to approve an installation. Now tell me where it says it is "unlimited".


I agree, the NEC is a permissive code in some aspects. In some apsects it is not permissive. All building codes are designed that way. Who do you think determines what is and what is not permissive in an area governed by local building codes when the code is subject to an interpretation?

 

[roger]

Colosparker, you have a few years to go to catch me. :roll: Did you read the excerpt out of the link you provided?

With that said, the document says the inspector can not ask for anything beyond what is adopted formally.

So, show me where a limit is spelled out either in a link from your adopted code or the NEC.

I'll acept it if you can provide that, otherwise you have nothing more than your wishes.


Roger

 

[peter d]

I agree, the NEC is a permissive code in some aspects. In some apsects it is not permissive.

Absolutely wrong. The NEC is completely permissive.

 

[colosparker]

Roger,

Have you ever dealt with an inspector on your electrical installation?

Yeah, Roger is just a newbie. He has never dealt with an inspector in his life. :lol: :lol:

Peter,

Not sure of Rogers background aside from the fact that he just mentioned that he is a project manager for a large contractor. He didn't mention what kind of project manager. I have no doubt he has dealt with electrical inspectors, rather, my question was rhetorical. No disrespect intended.

Dave

 

[iwire]

Why shouldn't the AHJ have the right to protect the consumers in their community from a poor installation, even if has nothing to do with safety and is more a "design issue" or at most an "inconvenience".?

Because that is not how a law or code works.

As far as the design or inconvenience factor that is not what the NECs purpose is.

90.2(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance will result in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

Luckily in my area they are weeding out the inspectors like yourself that feel their opinion should be treated as a law.

 

[iwire]

Bob,
Would you dispute the fact that an inspector can approve an installation based on the AHJ's interpretation of the NEC, which is all I am saying.

Interpretation is not the same as making up rules that do not exist.

This discussion started about the max outlets on a residential circuit.

There is no NEC limit and no amount of interpretation can change that.

Of course the AHJ can add new rules through a legal process.

Are you the AHJ or an inspector?

 

[peter d]

Not sure of Rogers background aside from the fact that he just mentioned that he is a project manager for a large contractor.

Yes, I see how you might think that a PM might not have any practical experience, because there are some who have not been field electricians before they became PMs. I can assure you that Roger is not one of them. 8)

 

[iwire]

Larry,

And if the local inspector is enforcing as spec'ed it can be enforced legally.

I understand that is true in some states, but in general the inspector can only enforce the adopted code. The enforcement of the specs is the job of the owner or his representative.
Don

In my area inspectors do not enforce owner specs, they enforce the code.