Max number of recepts per circuit

[dnem]

There is no maximum number of plugs per circuit.
There is a maximum square foot area served per circuit.

I hadn't looked into this one in a while, good to see progress.

But .....
as I stated above, that square footage has to be reduced by the wattage of the hardwired lights on that circuit.

No, the title of the table is "General Lighting Load" and 220.14(J) injects receptacles into that mix. The calculation is the minimum required lighting load, and receptacles are an afterthought.

Is there some maximum to what an area should be illuminated with, versus what is actually installed? No.

Good catch, George !
That was my bad !
Reducing the 600 square foot area to 400 sq' because of a hardwired light is the exception not the rule. You only do the reduction for accent lighting. My chandelier example was wrong.
Sorry everybody for giving a bad piece of information !

Here's the Handbook comment to 220.14(D) "In general, no additional calculation is required for luminaires (recessed and surface mounted) installed in or on a dwelling unit, because the load of such luminaires is covered in the 3 volt-amperes per square foot calculation specified by Table 220.12. Where the rating of the luminaires installed for general lighting exceeds the minimum load provided for Table 220.12, the minimum general lighting load for that premises is to be based on the installed luminaires. Distinguishing between the luminaires installed for general lighting versus those installed for accent, specialty or display lighting is much easier to delineate in commercial (particularly mercantile) occupancies."

So you don't reduce the 600 sq' per circuit [Table220.12 amount of 0.025a per foot] when the circuit includes hardwired lighting unless it's accent lighting. If the hardwired general lighting fixture watts gives you an amperage that is greater than 15 amps, you would need to run a larger branch circuit.

David

 

[JohnE]

There is no maximum number of plugs per circuit.
There is a maximum square foot area served per circuit.



David

I disagree with this statement. How would you determine which circuits serve which square foot when say you have receptacles served by 3 circuits in a room, which continue on to other rooms?

 

[roger]

Dave, I did read the posts and I just wanted to reiterate the point and make sure we were on the same page.

You say, (excerpt)

AHJ that has adopted their own rules for electrical installations in their jurisdiction.

and I agree if they are "formal" rules/codes on the books.

However, the issue of this thread has nothing to do with local codes, it is simply about the NEC's requirement as written, no one disputes that local codes are real and can be enforced.

I know the South Florida Building Code had limits at one time and were enforceable, but I don't think they exist now.


Roger

 

[colosparker]

However, the issue of this thread has nothing to do with local codes, it is simply about the NEC's requirement as written, no one disputes that local codes are real and can be enforced.

Roger,

My bad. I thought it was a general discussion about the number of receptacles on a branch circuit in a residence.

 

[colosparker]

Roger

BTW. When discussing an installation, such as, a branch circuit in a dwelling: The NEC is not intended as a design specification. The NEC is intended to be suitable for mandatory application by govermental bodies that excercise legal jurisdiction over electrical installations. The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the code has the responisibility for making interpretations of the rules. The authority having jurisdiction is responsible for approving an installation.


Those are all quotes directly from the NEC. The NEC gives the local AHJ the right to interpret the rules and approve the installations. If the local AHJ says x number receptacles (openings) on a general lighting branch circuit in a dwelling in their jurisdiction. The NEC gives him/her/them that right. To suggest local rules and regulations have nothing to do with this discussion, would be to dismiss the first two Articles of the NEC. IMHO



Dave

 

[iwire]

Dave it makes little sense for us to discuss local rules on a NEC forum that reaches a international audience.

No one outside of MA cares that we have local amendments.

No one outside of Chicago cares that they operate from the Chicago electrical code.

I can absolutely guarantee that Roger knows full well the rules of Article 90. 8)

I am not sure the point you are trying to get to.

The bottom line is the NEC does not restrict the number of receptacles on a residential circuit.

The NEC may well be amended by local jurisdictions.

The NEC is a minimum requirement

The NEC is not a design manual.

No local inspector can 'make' rules on the spot, if they want to add a requirement it will have to be legally adopted by the AHJ by whatever the legal procedure is in that area.

 

[roger]

Dave, Like Bob, I don't know what your point is either, (BTW thanks for the support Bob) but let's address your post.

When discussing an installation, such as, a branch circuit in a dwelling: The NEC is not intended as a design specification.

You are absolutely correct, we don't need the NEC to design or lay out a circuit in a dwelling for us, this includes having it tell us how many receptacles to put on a General Lighting circuit in a dwelling unit.

The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the code has the responisibility for making interpretations of the rules.

Yep, interpreting rules, not making up rules.

For any person on his/her own to think they have more knowledge and have the right to make their own rules is kind of disrespectful to those who spend countless hours as participants on a CMP or to those who are concerned enough to submit ROP's don't you think?

The authority having jurisdiction is responsible for approving an installation.

Yep again, but this is only approving the installation along the lines of an adopted set of rules or code, not rules made on the fly.

If the local AHJ says x number receptacles (openings) on a general lighting branch circuit in a dwelling in their jurisdiction. The NEC gives him/her/them that right.

No, it doesn't, I don't know how you can think this is true.

If the local AHJ makes a code or set of rules formally there is no issue.

The fact is that we are talking the NEC in this thread, or at least most of us are.

To suggest local rules and regulations have nothing to do with this discussion, would be to dismiss the first two Articles of the NEC. IMHO

You correctly installed "IMHO" in your last sentence. BTW are you using the 2002 for that sentence?

Roger

 

[dlhoule]

A local inspector can legally require x number of receptacles on a branch circuit in a residence. The NEC is just a minumum requirement. If the inspector says you can't put four rooms on one AFCI, he is probably basing it on local codes (rules). A local building code can and will supersede any NEC requirements. Same with any codes,whether it's plumbing, building,HVAC, electrical, etc. All kinds of factors including enviroment, economic, seismic, weather, insurance companies, local business groups, etc. drive local codes. They are every bit as enforceable as the NEC, if not more so.

Every jurisdiction (20+)I have wired homes in over the past 26 years has had their rules for number of opening on a genral lighting branch circuit in a residence. We had jurisdictions that would not allow romex. Some jurisdictions would not allow 14 gauge wire in a residence. I remember one town that required a disconnect (switch) for a dishwasher. Some of them wanted 14 opening on a circuit, I remember a few that would only allow 10 openings. You knew the rules before you wired the homes.

I hope they had opening defined. If you meant outlet, you can have 1 to at least 4 receptacles at each outlet. What is it that they were enforcing?

 

[colosparker]

Roger, Bob,

I will state this again. The NEC gives the local AHJ the right to make their rules. Some local AHJ's do have requirements, rules, with regard to this subject (not "made on the fly"). For the two of you to dismiss this fact, whether it is in Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Bangkok, Podunk, or wherever they have electricians wiring dwellings is not abiding to the NEC.

I do not think it is wrong to discuss the AHJ when discussing the NEC. Your point has already been made with regard to whether or not the NEC gives a specific number of receptacles on a branch circuit in a dwelling. I applaud your knowledge of the NEC. I now realise the NEC gives me permission to put all of the receptacles on one circuit, if I was so inclined to do such a thing (unless of course the local AHJ red tags my installation).


Roger, I use the 2005 NEC. We have adopted the 2005 NEC where I live, so I have no need for an outdated code book.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Modifications to the NEC are fine as long as they have been legally adopted and published buy the AHJ. One of the problems is that many equate AHJ with inspector. They are rarely the same. The inspector enforces the rules adopted by the AHJ, but cannot make rules.
Don

 

[peter d]

The NEC gives the local AHJ the right to make their rules.

Yes, if by that you mean that the NEC can be ammended by local officials and written into law.

Otherwise, you are violating the Constitution, IMO.

 

[colosparker]

The NEC gives the local AHJ the right to make their rules.

Yes, if by that you mean that the NEC can be amended by local officials and written into law.

Otherwise, you are violating the Constitution, IMO.

Peter,

By definition the authority having jurisdiction is "responsible for approving equipment, materials, an installation or a procedure." They don't have to amend the NEC. They can approve (or not approve) an installation based on their requirements. The NEC is the minimum standard for electrical installations in most cases. Cities, counties, states, have the right to require more stringent electrical standards if they so choose. IMO

Dave

 

[cowboyjwc]

The one thing to remember as an inspector is that the contractor has some responsibility too.

Yes the installation is code compliant.

Will he be coming back on a service call when the breaker starts tripping after everyone turns on their stereos, TVs and computers. The answer to that is also yes.

Should you advise him that he will have problems. Yes

Are you responsible when he does. NO

Remember, just when you think it's idiot proof, along comes a better idiot.

 

[colosparker]

I hope they had opening defined. If you meant outlet, you can have 1 to at least 4 receptacles at each outlet. What is it that they were enforcing?

Larry, I use the term "opening". I could have used outlet, but I always called them openings. It's a term we use in these here parts :wink:
And when I say "outlet", I refer to "outlet" as defined by the NEC.

 

[dnem]

There is no maximum number of plugs per circuit.
There is a maximum square foot area served per circuit.



David

I disagree with this statement. How would you determine which circuits serve which square foot when say you have receptacles served by 3 circuits in a room, which continue on to other rooms?

I can tell you how I would inspect it.

First of all, in the real world the issue would only come up once every couple of years when I run across a house that has 4 rooms on one circuit [or maybe a large greatroom with another room or two]. At that time I would look at the area served by a circuit to see if it was bigger than 600 sq' [or 800 sq' if it was wired with a 12 gauge circuit].

If there were two different circuits in the same room, I'd get an overview of both circuits combined and see if they were spread out over more than 1200 sq'.

If there were three different circuits in the same room, I'd get an over view of all three circuits combined and see if they were spread out over more than 1800 sq'.

In the end, there would be a very very remote chance of anyone attempting to wire more than 1800 sq' with only three circuits. But if they did, I would fail the inspection and site 220.14(J)(1) & Table220.12.

David

 

[peter d]

Peter,

By definition the authority having jurisdiction is "responsible for approving equipment, materials, an installation or a procedure." They don't have to amend the NEC. They can approve (or not approve) an installation based on their requirements. The NEC is the minimum standard for electrical installations in most cases. Cities, counties, states, have the right to require more stringent electrical standards if they so choose. IMO

Dave

So you are saying that an inspector can make up the rules without official ammendments?

Why even bother with the NEC at all then? :x

If what you say is true, then you have an "Everything is relative" situation. There is no benchmark at all. If a particular inspector like things a certain way, he will enforce "his way."

You are dead wrong about this.

 

[infinity]

Modifications to the NEC are fine as long as they have been legally adopted and published buy the AHJ. One of the problems is that many equate AHJ with inspector. They are rarely the same. The inspector enforces the rules adopted by the AHJ, but cannot make rules.
Don

I agree with Don. This seems to be part of the confusion. Around here in New Jersey, the AHJ is a State Agency that adopts standards. The electrical standard that they have adopted here is the NEC. The state AHJ also interprets the NEC and enforces their interpretation as permitted by law. This is not done on any local level otherwise it would make little sense to adopt a statewide electrical code. A local electrical inspector is not the AHJ. It's his job to inspect using the standards that have been adopted into law in that jurisdiction by the AHJ.

 

[roger]

Colosparker, I guess if you don't mind accepting a red tag because some one comes along and says, "we have a rule", that's your business.

I won't.

The AHJ in NC is a governmental agency that formally enacts codes and amendments, and once it is done it is recorded and made public, I don't know how you're used to it being done, sounds like you just accept what you are told.

You can read all the information for NC by clicking here, I'm sorry you don't have the same luxury where you are. :lol:

BTW,

To suggest local rules and regulations have nothing to do with this discussion, would be to dismiss the first two Articles of the NEC.

what does article 100 have to do with this conversation, are you refereing the definition of AHJ?

Roger

 

[iwire]

Colosparker, I guess if you don't mind accepting a red tag because some one comes along and says, "we have a rule", that's your business.

Roger, he is the inspector.

Occupation: Master Electrician/Inspector

Dave do you consider yourself the AHJ?

Is it you that adopts the NEC?

Is that how the rules are written in your area?

 

[colosparker]

Peter,

You bet. A local AHJ can and do make their own rules. Again, the NEC is only a minimum standard.