Misuse of Equipment

Misuse of Equipment

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cschmid said:
Now lets assume that the item catches fire and destroys the panel and causes property damage..who is liable.
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OK so now lets try to figure another way to say it's wrong. :rolleyes:

Electrical devices are commonly installed inside electrical cabinets, there is nothing unusual about that.

I take it you have never installed an E-mon D-mon sub meter?

so an installation that is not specifically covered becomes legal even if it has a potential hazard..interesting concept..
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What hazard?

If it is hazardous please, put in a proposal.
 
joe tedesco said:
This bulletin board doesn't have a poll function, and from what I can see the subject of the question is considered to be a violation by many.
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Actually it does.

I asked a simple question, and I already knew what I was going to say,
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No kidding? :grin:

I figured you going to endorse the method. :wink:


The original picture shows equipment that was not designed to be crammed into the space used for conductors in a cabinet, and yet the words in the manual seem to be what is confusing those who are set in their interpretation.
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Not confusing, easy to understand.

Still not an NEC violation.


How about this, lets try to agree on the size of the gutter space and the size of the object, do the calculations and see if we are anywhere near 40%?
 
Proposal

Proposal

OK, but how can the calculation be done using the picture?

Are we looking for fill or splices or taps?

"NECH Application Example

If an enclosure has a wiring space of 4 in. wide by 3 in. deep, the cross-sectional area is 12 in.2 Thus, the total conductor fill (see Chapter 9, Table 5 for dimensions of conductors) at any cross section cannot exceed 4.8 in.2 (40 percent of 12 in.2), and the maximum space for conductors and splices or taps at any cross section cannot exceed 9 in.2 (75 percent of 12 in.2).

In general, the best way to avoid overcrowding enclosures is to properly plan and lay out work before installation and use properly sized auxiliary gutters (366.22, 366.56, and 366.58) or junction boxes (314.16 and 314.28). See 430.10 and the associated commentary for wiring space in enclosures for motor controllers and disconnecting means. See also 110.59 for tunnel installations over 600 volts."

I can't find the Poll function when replying, where is it?

Here's a proposal form.
 
Joe, click on the "Thread Tools" icon in the bar above the first post on the page.

Roger
 
Form For Proposals On Nfpa Technical Committee Documents

Form For Proposals On Nfpa Technical Committee Documents

roger said:
Joe, click on the "Thread Tools" icon in the bar above the first post on the page.

Roger
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Thanks Roger, Poll added, and here's my proposal, others can send the same one in after adding the missing information:
 
whew I thought the poll looked alittle weak on this one..

Bob I am not trying to point out another way to say it is wrong..I am trying to point out that there is no real clear cut winner here..because legally the manufacturers instructions are going to carry authority even if the product is not listed..

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.

(A) Examination. In judging equipment, considerations such as the following shall be evaluated:

(1) Suitability for installation and use in conformity with the provisions of this Code

FPN: Suitability of equipment use may be identified by a description marked on or provided with a product to identify the suitability of the product for a specific purpose, environment, or application. Suitability of equipment may be evidenced by listing or labeling.

(2) Mechanical strength and durability, including, for parts designed to enclose and protect other equipment, the adequacy of the protection thus provided

(3) Wire-bending and connection space

(4) Electrical insulation

(5) Heating effects under normal conditions of use and also under abnormal conditions likely to arise in service

(6) Arcing effects

(7) Classification by type, size, voltage, current capacity, and specific use

(8) Other factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons using or likely to come in contact with the equipment

(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

Manufacturers usually supply installation instructions with equipment for use by general contractors, erectors, electrical contractors, electrical inspectors, and others concerned with an installation. It is important to follow the listing or labeling installation instructions.
In itself, 110.3 does not require listing or labeling of equipment. It does, however, require considerable evaluation of equipment. Section 110.2 requires that equipment be acceptable only if approved. The term approved is defined in Article 100 as acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ). Before issuing approval, the authority having jurisdiction may require evidence of compliance with 110.3(A). The most common form of evidence considered acceptable by authorities having jurisdiction is a listing or labeling by a third party. Some sections in the Code require listed or labeled equipment. For example, 250.8 specifies “listed pressure connectors, pressure connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment, or other listed means” as connection methods for grounding and bonding conductors.

So after careful consideration of the facts reviewing the manufactures installation instructions and review 110.3(a) I would say no it is not acceptable because the manufactures suggests that the device be mounted in a seperate enclosure..So it is an AHJ call...
 
cschmid said:
Bob I am not trying to point out another way to say it is wrong..I am trying to point out that there is no real clear cut winner here..because legally the manufacturers instructions are going to carry authority even if the product is not listed.....
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The Installation instructions;

Installation of the PPC-1
Note:​
​
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Installation must be carried out by a qualified electrician only. The main breaker must be turned off during installation and the coupler must be installed in a suitable junction box or equivalent enclosure. Installation must be carried out in accordance with all applicable codes and requirements, including, but not limited to, the National Electrical Code (NEC). [/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Can a panel enclosure be used as a junction box?[/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]If so wouldn't a panel enclosure be equivalent to a junction box?[/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]If so wouldn't mounting this item in the panel enclosure be the same as mounting it in a junction box?[/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Is there in the NEC that says it can't be mounted in a panel enclosure?[/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Why are we still discussing this?[/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]How would you answer the Poll question correctly? ​

[/FONT]
 
jwelectric said:
The Installation instructions;


Installation of the PPC-1​


Note:
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Installation must be carried out by a qualified electrician only. The main breaker must be turned off during installation and the coupler must be installed in a suitable junction box or equivalent enclosure. Installation must be carried out in accordance with all applicable codes and requirements, including, but not limited to, the National Electrical Code (NEC). [/FONT]

[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Can a panel enclosure be used as a junction box?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]If so wouldn't a panel enclosure be equivalent to a junction box?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]If so wouldn't mounting this item in the panel enclosure be the same as mounting it in a junction box?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Is there in the NEC that says it can't be mounted in a panel enclosure?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Why are we still discussing this?[/FONT]​


[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]How would you answer the Poll question correctly? [/FONT]​
[FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]
[/FONT]​
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The panel enclosure MAY qualify as a suitable enclosure, however the enclosure manufacturer can not and will not permit the installation of any device that is not essential to the function and operation of their equipment.

When UL lists the panel they will consider only those type of equipment and devices and how the panel may safely and functionally accomodate those and can not and will not consider any others.

I think the statement from both of those entities made the issue closed and no longer open to debate.

Of course y'all can continue to waste your breath and time to challenge that.:D
​
 
joe tedesco said:
Is this product properly installed, and is it even listed?

The mounting holes seem to show that it is not properly installed, and it is definitely overcrowding the area that some believe allows it in that space using the fill calculation of not more that 40% mentioned in Article 312 for a Cabinet.

This is a Panelboard mounted in a Cabinet.
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The poll is typical of political polls, neither answer is correct.

NO - presumes that an AHJ authority to overide manufacturers or UL's ruling can not be excercised.
YES - presumes that AHJ will override such authority.

AHJ can approve whatever they deadgum plese, but that does not mean it is legal.

The question should have been phrased, simply:can any device be installed in a panelboard that is not functionally necessary for its operation.
 
weressl said:
The panel enclosure MAY qualify as a suitable enclosure, however the enclosure manufacturer can not and will not permit the installation of any device that is not essential to the function and operation of their equipment.
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weressl said:
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Help me understand just what you are saying in this statement please.

I do a service upgrade and move the overcurrent devices to another location. Now these existing overcurrent devices are no longer needed but the circuit conductors are not long enough to reach the new locations.

What you are saying is that it would be illegal to remove the panel board and make splices in this enclosure in order to extend the circuit conductors to the new location.

How would you propose to make such an installation?

If you say that the splices in the old panel enclosure would be legal then are you not saying that the old enclosure is a large junction box?

If it is nothing more than a large junction box would it not fit the description of the manufacturer of the phase converter?

Just how hard can this be?
 
jwelectric said:
Help me understand just what you are saying in this statement please.

I do a service upgrade and move the overcurrent devices to another location. Now these existing overcurrent devices are no longer needed but the circuit conductors are not long enough to reach the new locations.

What you are saying is that it would be illegal to remove the panel board and make splices in this enclosure in order to extend the circuit conductors to the new location.

How would you propose to make such an installation?

If you say that the splices in the old panel enclosure would be legal then are you not saying that the old enclosure is a large junction box?

If it is nothing more than a large junction box would it not fit the description of the manufacturer of the phase converter?

Just how hard can this be?
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As soon as you remove the 'guts' it is no longer a panelboard, but a backbox only. I do not think that Square D list the backbox for the installation of anything else but various sizes and volyages rated panelboard assemblies. Nor do I believe they manufacture a blank cover for it. Should you fabricate a suitable cover for it, you have added a component to the backbox that is not listed, therefore voiding the listing of the panelboard.

In my opinion it became a perfectly suitable junction box, but my opinion does not count. Listing does.

What phase converter are you talking about? What does that have to do with this discussion?
 
weressl said:
As soon as you remove the 'guts' it is no longer a panelboard, but a backbox only.
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You need to read the NEC definition of panelboard in Article 100.

It would also help if you actually read the thread you are commenting on as we have already gone over this.


Here is a cabinet as covered by Article 312

10406_300.jpg


This is a panelboard as covered by Article 408, it is missing only the dead front.

PanelGuts.jpg



Here is a panelboard in a cabinet as covered by Article 312 and 408

1106523920.jpg


Edit Spelling.
 
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In my opinion it became a perfectly suitable junction box, but my opinion does not count. Listing does.
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There is no requirement that cabinets or junction boxes be a listed product. This is intentional to permit the field fabrication of custom cabinets or boxes.
 
weressl said:
As soon as you remove the 'guts' it is no longer a panelboard, but a backbox only. I do not think that Square D list the backbox for the installation of anything else but various sizes and volyages rated panelboard assemblies. Nor do I believe they manufacture a blank cover for it. Should you fabricate a suitable cover for it, you have added a component to the backbox that is not listed, therefore voiding the listing of the panelboard.

In my opinion it became a perfectly suitable junction box, but my opinion does not count. Listing does.

What phase converter are you talking about? What does that have to do with this discussion?
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Now I better understand. Your remarks are being made simply because you don't know the differences in a load center, panel board and an enclosure.

Now using what you have said that the "backbox" could be used as a junction box then why could not the phase coupler be installed per its instructions
 
okay so now we can head back to a question I had earlier..When the panel board is in the cabinet and you are measuring the space on the vertical portion of the cabinet where does the measurement begin and end..ending point being the wall of the cabinet the beginning would it be the termination area (back) of the breaker or the base of the panel board..
 
cschmid said:
...beginning would it be the termination area (back) of the breaker or the base of the panel board..
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I use whatever value gives the smallest area. For me it it is typically from the breaker to the side wall, primarily because that is the area intended as "wiring space" as opposed to "panelboard space".
 
cschmid said:
When the panel board is in the cabinet and you are measuring the space on the vertical portion of the cabinet where does the measurement begin and end..ending point being the wall of the cabinet the beginning would it be the termination area (back) of the breaker or the base of the panel board..
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I measured the space on my own panel.

When I measure the depth I get about 3.5"

When I measure from the cabinet to the breaker I get 3.5", to the edge of the panel board I get 3"

So lets call it 3" x 3" and nobody can say I pushed the numbers. :)

3" * 3" = 9 sq in, @ 40% fill is 3.6 sq in.

How many 12 AWG THHNs will the NEC allow? :)

(Heres a hint, 3.6 sq in is just a bit more area then a 3" EMT has :))
 
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