Moonlighting

[Tori]

I think I read in EC&M that a contractor would say in the above situation, I have a docuement that I need you sign now that I have witnessed the code violations that releases me from liability since you only want me to fix the light - he said it usually got him the rest of the work

I was called to a home - side work - heh- to look at a recep in the laundry rm. seems it kept smoking Irons - I asked the homeowner- how many Irons - sheepishly - he said 5 !!! the recep had 220v and the culprit was a handyman that had made the attic an office and done all the wiring

 

[emahler]

Say you work for a local EC. Well you do "side work" to make ends meet. Well your name gets around for doing work below Legit EC's and you find yourself with more work than you can handle. You have no insurance, no tax burden and no expenses other than those directly for the job. In this case- gas and material. You charge $55.00 per hour and make $15.00 working for someone.
You do not have insurance, file the proper tax forms, workman's comp, etc.
Pure profit....

You decide one day that you are going into business. Well now you have to get insurance, file the proper tax forms, get workman's comp, commercial insurance for your vehicles, ETC.
Now you have to charge $85.00 per hour to pay your expenses and if you are luck, you now make $30.00 per hour.

Guess what, dont count on your previous customer base because the minute you go up $30.00 per hour, your customer base will find someone just like you were, $55.00 per hour. Plop goes the business because your customer base relyed upon you being the cheap guy.

You go bankrupt trying to figure out what went wrong. You blame the customer and the guy doing the work without a liscense. Just like you did.

The cycle starts again, you look for a job doing the same side work again.

so you've trained people not to pay a fair price?

why don't we train them to pay a fair price?

 

[romexking]

We absolutely have a disclaimer on our invoices that states that we have informed the H/O of safety or code violations, and they request it not to be repaired. There is a space specifically for this disclaimer for the customer to initial.

And as for getting in the middle between a H/O and a previous "contractor", well we will certainly complete a very thorough inspection (for a fee) for the customer if requested, but refrain from suggesting actions to take against the previous person. We are electrical professionals, not lawyers. This particular customer had no intentions of spending another dime to make his house safe. I will however give his wife a call today and explain the need to repair the safety issues noted, and for a complete inspection.

 

[emahler]

romex,

i know this is getting off topic, which hopefully it'll get back on soon, but I would follow up that phone call with a certified letter, outlining the phone call. It's a small thing, should take 10 mins of your time. Phone call shows the customer the importance of it. Certified letter shows the court that you were dilligent should the need arise.

Again, it's a small amount of your time, to potentially save huge headaches later. What's that old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"?

 

[Bob NH]

I'm convinced that you need no special permission from a gov't body to earn a living.

I will now be known as Dr. Celtic.
I can perform all surgerys at low cost in your own home or in my garage.
As I am new to this side of the operating table, I will be running weekly specials.

This weeks special:
Eye Exams ~ $29.95....

There was recently a liposuction guy from South America who regularly traveled to Massachusetts to do specials. He got away with it until one of his patients died in some basement operating room.

 

[growler]

Wal-Mart is not putting manufacturers out of work, it's becoming a global economy. Soon China will not be able to be the low cost producer and the manufacturing will move to the next country. Our workers now have to compete with the world. We were spoiled after WWII.

See what happens when you take off your little Aluminum Foil Hat. You start to believe that government drivel and buy extended warranties.

 

[celtic]

Getting back to moonlighters....

craigslist.org is HUGE outlet for moonlighters.

People want to save money, people need to make money - what a great idea to have a place where they can find what they want/need.


But....wait a second....

In NJ, ALL advertising for EC services MUST contain the lic. and bus. permit number.
90% of the ads offering "electrical work" contain NO lic/bus. permit info.
Someone - not me - has decided to post a notice:
consumers check electrical licenses here

This is similar to what the yellow pages has it right before the EC area.

Do customers pay attention to either?
Probably NOT.

You can't force consumers to heed warnings.
You can't expect consumers to know the laws that apply to everything.

You can penalize those that work outside the law - they are the ones that are REQUIRED to be aware of the laws that apply to their trade.

 

[iwire]

OK folks here is the deal.

This thread IMO has run it's course.

I will be closing this thread in about 48 hours from now.

Get your thoughts together and post a closing statement if you want. :smile:

Each Poster gets one more post and I will hold you to that.

As always feel free to continue this discussion via PMs.

 

[edamico11]

47 hours and counting

47 hours and counting

If he is a moonlighter with a license,, hey let him make a buck, how much of the market share is he really taking.

If he is a moonlighter without a license, he should pay the price... rules and enforcement should get tougher.

 

[bkludecke]

Although I agree with much of what's been said about the unlicensed (and unwashed) moonlighter; we are pretty choosey about who we work for and really don't want the 'el cheapo' customers. Here in CA a handyman can do up to $600.00 worth of work w/o a license or insurance of any kind and for those who want to gamble, it's their right to do so. Buyer beware.

For the moonlighter who is legit, it's only a matter of time before he/she either quits or gets real anyway.

 

[emahler]

80 pages about switching a receptacle, still open. 35 pages about the financial impact on businesses, run it's course and lock it

Bob, let it run it's course naturally. You never know who might see this in the future and wish to comment. No one here has gotten vicious, or mean, or personal. I think everyone has learned a little something.

Leave it unlocked and let it naturally run it's course.

That's my one and only post before you lock it. It's a protest.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

See what happens when you take off your little Aluminum Foil Hat. You start to believe that government drivel and buy extended warranties.

I guess WM is responsible for the I.T. jobs going to India? The influx of an inexpensive labor force that hurts the "workingstiffs"?

No, I don't blame my problems on WM. Everyone of these companies that deal with WM could chose to not grow and just plug along. It is a global economy, the USA is in for a very rude awakening in the next 20-40 years.

Now that extended warranty comment was just mean.

 

[satcom]

"If he is a moonlighter with a license,, hey let him make a buck, how much of the market share is he really taking."

There is no issue with anyone working Licensed where required, Insured and Bonded, where required, and Files permits for jobs if required.

Why are we closing a posting, on something as serious as illegal work, would we also close down a news publication, if they addressed the issue of un licensed doctors, working in your local hospital, or is better not to know.

This is one of the few outlets we have to communicate with others in the electrical trades.

Thank you,

 

[shelton]

Here is a good short story a guy that worked for me was told at least once a month that he would evently get in trouble if he did side work to make a long story short he did a 4500 square foot house for a local policeman and he paid a contractor $1000.00 for a permit he made some mistakes on the job and would not go back and finished he was then called into the police department and told to make restitution for job. He didn't not and then he was arested and spent 3 days in jail. The contractor that signed permit had to finish the job and he now has to go before the board of electrical contractors. The guy that was moonlighting was working for the casnios and has been fired for having been arested for fraud and the feds are looking at his tax returns because he was payed of $20,000. for the job and didn't pay taxes. In the long run moon lighting doesn't pay off.

 

[Tori]

what an idiot,- he would not go back and finish ?? -can you say law suit and charges and license rejection ?
what was he thinking ? screw my friend who pulled the permit ?

 

[iwire]

80 pages about switching a receptacle, still open. 35 pages about the financial impact on businesses, run it's course and lock it

Why are we closing a posting, on something as serious as illegal work, would we also close down a news publication, if they addressed the issue of un licensed doctors, working in your local hospital, or is better not to know.

Guys you are free to communicate via PMs and I have no doubt there are business forums that would welcome this discussion.

The primary purpose of this forum is the code with a few side tracks into basic contracting questions.

It was my decision to close this thread but I did ask the other Moderators what they thought.

The one response I got was close it.

I will be happy to discuss this via PMs

If you really feel you have been mistreated feel free to go over my head.

Charlie B is still the Chief Moderator and Mile Holt is the administer.

Bob

 

[growler]

what an idiot,- he would not go back and finish ?? -can you say law suit and charges and license rejection ?
what was he thinking ? screw my friend who pulled the permit ?

Who say's it was a friend? I have been asked by people that I didn't even know to permit work. A thousand dollars for a signature on a piece of paper sounds like good money ( if you are a greedy low-life ).

The contractor that signed the permit is just as guilty as the unlicensed person doing the work. He should be forced to pay for finishing the job and then have his license revoked. I have no sympathy for this contractor.

Just because someone waves money in your face doesn't mean you have to take it. It's tempting but a license puts a person in a position of trust and that trust should be honored.

 

[renosteinke]

Moonlighting

I hope the thread remains open.

IMO, regulations, overhead, and competition are legitimate business matters. Sometimes the 'competition' can come from sources other than licensed contractors.

Likewise, much overhead is driven by regulation; being able to dodge this regulation gives that guy an advantage.

I also like the way this thread has shown how some guys think. "Everrybody does it" seems the first refuge of the scoundrel. Others have jumped through all sorts of hoops to try to avoid admitting that their position is unethical. Some otherwise brilliant folks have also become surprisingly thick all of a sudden!

 

[iwire]

"Everrybody does it" seems the first refuge of the scoundrel. Others have jumped through all sorts of hoops to try to avoid admitting that their position is unethical. Some otherwise brilliant folks have also become surprisingly thick all of a sudden!

Thanks John,:wink: your post is a perfect illustration of why this thread will be closed tomorrow.

Few people are able to disagree about this subject matter without resorting to that type of post.

 

[satcom]

Since this thread will be closed, anyone intrested in the subject can find the 100,000 plus postings on this subject at, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...rical+contractors+underground+economy&spell=1

This is a better way to understand all the views, without tiying up this site.