- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
I was just throwing a caution out there, you're new here so I figured you might not realize the significance.Tori said:
Welcome to the forum.
Moonlighting
- Thread starter emahler
- Start date
- Status
Welcome to the forum.
renosteinke said:
That's insane.
"The moonlighters act as a check on the licensed bona-fide EC"
Do the back-alley abortionists act as a check on real abortion clinics?
Sometimes it DOES cost $200 to change a lamp (horticulturist's use bulbs, electricians use lamps
)....just because someone can change a lamp for $50, or even $10, does not in anyway, shape or form mean that it can be construed as a "check".I would venture to say that the moonlighter has virtually NO CONCEPT of what it actually costs to change a lamp. In the moonlighter's eyes, the cost is merely the time for:
- the labor involved to get the job done
- the cost of the lamp (possible w/o mark-up, or an erroneous percentage)
and that's it.
Their cost reflect ONLY what they "want" to do the job.
The bona-fide contractor incurs way more costs - which has been detailed in the post previously. Their costs reflect what they "need" to do the job.
This can be applied to any task an EC or moonlighter performs - from changing lamps to wiring entire homes.
That's just crazy talk, reno...crazy I tell you.
- Location
- Massachusetts
celtic said:(horticulturist's use bulbs, electricians use lamps
Thank you! :grin:
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
iwire said:
Ok, I just watched all 5 sections. While I agree that Wal-Mart does not have any altruistic behavior, I do not see them as doing anything wrong. They are bottom line business people that organize information and processes better than anyone else on the planet. I agree they have no heart.
Should Henry Ford be scolded for creating an assembly line and reducing the number of employees and employee hours needed to build a car?
Should we shun Deere for moving manufacturing jobs from Wisconsin to the South?
How much more should someone be paid for stocking a shelf for 30-years than someone who can do it faster but has only been doing it for 2-weeks?
I don't attempt to wire houses. Why? I'm too slow to compete with the younger guys who can move faster than I can. I will soon be too slow to compete with anyone. I don't blame anyone else. I'm where I am because of my decisions.
Wal-Mart is not putting manufacturers out of work, it's becoming a global economy. Soon China will not be able to be the low cost producer and the manufacturing will move to the next country. Our workers now have to compete with the world. We were spoiled after WWII.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I agree with some of your points (spoiled for one).
But IMO it goes well past being good business.
I will stop here as this thread is not about Wal-mart.
But IMO it goes well past being good business.
I will stop here as this thread is not about Wal-mart.
If this multi page monster is going to continue, how about if we try to describe some of the violations, and poor work we find when we are called to repair some of the moomlighters work.
When we get called on a job, where there are problems, we ask the homowner, if they know who did the work, some moved in, and the previous owner did the work, or had it done, and some will remember who did it, and when it was done.
Some of the work is so bad, and has so many violations, you can see it was done by someone with no electrical background, and then there are the ones that fool you, cables and or conduit neat, everything mounted plum, and level, but outlet spacing is off, sub panel may have the neutral bonded, sub feeder may be the wrong size, and cables are often run, without protection, after talking to the customers, you usually find it was a plant maint electrician, and they will be proud to tell you, the guy that did it, works for XXX Company, and i don't see how it can be wrong.
The consumer usually does not know, the difference, to them an electrician is an electrician.
In all these situations the consumer looses, and the moonlighter pockets the money.
When we get called on a job, where there are problems, we ask the homowner, if they know who did the work, some moved in, and the previous owner did the work, or had it done, and some will remember who did it, and when it was done.
Some of the work is so bad, and has so many violations, you can see it was done by someone with no electrical background, and then there are the ones that fool you, cables and or conduit neat, everything mounted plum, and level, but outlet spacing is off, sub panel may have the neutral bonded, sub feeder may be the wrong size, and cables are often run, without protection, after talking to the customers, you usually find it was a plant maint electrician, and they will be proud to tell you, the guy that did it, works for XXX Company, and i don't see how it can be wrong.
The consumer usually does not know, the difference, to them an electrician is an electrician.
In all these situations the consumer looses, and the moonlighter pockets the money.
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Good idea.satcom said:
I think Joe Tedesco has a coloum in EC&M dedicated to that concept:
[What's wrong here?]
Joe also posts various "What's wrong here?" topics on various websites.
I have taken the liberty to use his words (What's wrong here?") in the "Safety" area here at Mike Holt ~ What's wrong here....
It's a great idea Joe has over at EC&M . ...but I don't think this site will be giving tools away
I say: DO IT
Post a "What's wrong here" pic, wait a few days for people to view and comment, then the OP can post how they resolved the issue - even if they walked away...we can't fix it if we ain't getting paid for the repair
- Location
- Massachusetts
I think you guys are forgetting that a lot of 'legitimately' licensed contractors do some pretty bad work. No one here at this forum of course.
No doubt a lot of Joe T's pictures are of electricians handy work.
No doubt a lot of Joe T's pictures are of electricians handy work.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
HA! I don't know if my digital camera has that much memory. I do primarily service. I do 4-6 calls a day myself, and I'm constantly asking myself, "What's wrong here". You can't make the world perfect. Just better than before you arrived. I, regrettably, work in a state that had no statewide code enforcement until late in '04. We Pennsylvanian's sure see some stuff. Some municipalities have worked under the NEC for many decades. It's like night and day when you do a job in one of these towns, then do your next service call in one of the rural townships. Lord, have mercy.celtic said:
romexking
Senior Member
- Location
- Marriottsville, Maryland
Ok, this is nothing that we havn't seen a thousand times, but here I go...
get a call at 10 am. Customer has "sparks" coming from the switch box when he turns on the switch controlling the light he just installed. Oh, by the way, he just had his basement finished...electrical work by a handyman. Well after having my tech in there for 2.5 hours chasing this problem and "a couple of other little things" it was determined that an old ceiling box was buried behind the drywall. Had to locate it to repair the problem. Meanwhile, we also discovered wires in j-boxes that trace down a wall near the fireplace, but do not terminate anywhere. Yep that's right, the fireplace doesn't work either.
Now all of this work was done by a "handyman". The customer (who lives in a $350k home) "doesn't have the money to repair this right now", but wants to know if it is safe. My tech of course says it is not, but they don't want to repair anything else, just get the light working.
What should have happened is when the job was bid, the handyman should have said "if you can't afford a professional to do the electrical work (and plumbing) you can't afford a finished basement", but instead, that handyman was greedy, and wanted to make all of the money himself, instead of using qualifed contractors.
Tell me...who benefited here?
get a call at 10 am. Customer has "sparks" coming from the switch box when he turns on the switch controlling the light he just installed. Oh, by the way, he just had his basement finished...electrical work by a handyman. Well after having my tech in there for 2.5 hours chasing this problem and "a couple of other little things" it was determined that an old ceiling box was buried behind the drywall. Had to locate it to repair the problem. Meanwhile, we also discovered wires in j-boxes that trace down a wall near the fireplace, but do not terminate anywhere. Yep that's right, the fireplace doesn't work either.
Now all of this work was done by a "handyman". The customer (who lives in a $350k home) "doesn't have the money to repair this right now", but wants to know if it is safe. My tech of course says it is not, but they don't want to repair anything else, just get the light working.
What should have happened is when the job was bid, the handyman should have said "if you can't afford a professional to do the electrical work (and plumbing) you can't afford a finished basement", but instead, that handyman was greedy, and wanted to make all of the money himself, instead of using qualifed contractors.
Tell me...who benefited here?
"forgetting that a lot of 'legitimately' licensed contractors do some pretty bad work"
No one is forgetting they contribute, but in my my own day to day dealings i find the licensed contractor is the smaller contribution to the bad work, the largest percent is from DIY and moonlighters, and i am sure if you were to ask those in the residential service sector what their finds were they would have figures close to ours.
Just this past September, we had a call, the panel and wiring was a mess, the customer insisted, it was done by a licensed electrician, and a permit was issued, as it turned out i called the pool company, and spoke to the owner, "oh that job, yes it was done by our electrician, i remember paying the $150 to have the permit filled out, and my electrician has been doing my pools for years, the chemical plant he works at would not let him work there if he din't know what he was doing."
Bob, we can't avoid looking at the problem, it's real. and it does impact the industry, and costs the consumer, first we have to realize the problem is real, then find a way to fix it, finally some of the states are stepping up enforcement, but this will take years, before we see the results.
No one is forgetting they contribute, but in my my own day to day dealings i find the licensed contractor is the smaller contribution to the bad work, the largest percent is from DIY and moonlighters, and i am sure if you were to ask those in the residential service sector what their finds were they would have figures close to ours.
Just this past September, we had a call, the panel and wiring was a mess, the customer insisted, it was done by a licensed electrician, and a permit was issued, as it turned out i called the pool company, and spoke to the owner, "oh that job, yes it was done by our electrician, i remember paying the $150 to have the permit filled out, and my electrician has been doing my pools for years, the chemical plant he works at would not let him work there if he din't know what he was doing."
Bob, we can't avoid looking at the problem, it's real. and it does impact the industry, and costs the consumer, first we have to realize the problem is real, then find a way to fix it, finally some of the states are stepping up enforcement, but this will take years, before we see the results.
Moonlighters get what comes around
Moonlighters get what comes around
Say you work for a local EC. Well you do "side work" to make ends meet. Well your name gets around for doing work below Legit EC's and you find yourself with more work than you can handle. You have no insurance, no tax burden and no expenses other than those directly for the job. In this case- gas and material. You charge $55.00 per hour and make $15.00 working for someone.
You do not have insurance, file the proper tax forms, workman's comp, etc.
Pure profit....
You decide one day that you are going into business. Well now you have to get insurance, file the proper tax forms, get workman's comp, commercial insurance for your vehicles, ETC.
Now you have to charge $85.00 per hour to pay your expenses and if you are luck, you now make $30.00 per hour.
Guess what, dont count on your previous customer base because the minute you go up $30.00 per hour, your customer base will find someone just like you were, $55.00 per hour. Plop goes the business because your customer base relyed upon you being the cheap guy.
You go bankrupt trying to figure out what went wrong. You blame the customer and the guy doing the work without a liscense. Just like you did.
The cycle starts again, you look for a job doing the same side work again.
Moonlighters get what comes around
Say you work for a local EC. Well you do "side work" to make ends meet. Well your name gets around for doing work below Legit EC's and you find yourself with more work than you can handle. You have no insurance, no tax burden and no expenses other than those directly for the job. In this case- gas and material. You charge $55.00 per hour and make $15.00 working for someone.
You do not have insurance, file the proper tax forms, workman's comp, etc.
Pure profit....
You decide one day that you are going into business. Well now you have to get insurance, file the proper tax forms, get workman's comp, commercial insurance for your vehicles, ETC.
Now you have to charge $85.00 per hour to pay your expenses and if you are luck, you now make $30.00 per hour.
Guess what, dont count on your previous customer base because the minute you go up $30.00 per hour, your customer base will find someone just like you were, $55.00 per hour. Plop goes the business because your customer base relyed upon you being the cheap guy.
You go bankrupt trying to figure out what went wrong. You blame the customer and the guy doing the work without a liscense. Just like you did.
The cycle starts again, you look for a job doing the same side work again.
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
I'm assuming they don't live in my state. The homeowner would have no legal recourse since they hired someone illegally in the first place. The authorities have no sympathy for homeowners who hire handymen to do work that requires a license.celtic said:
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
jeff43222 said:
Neither do I, and I am no authority. But when I do smell a rat in the mess, I like to really ramp up the price for me to fix it the proper way, if I think that the current owner was trying to shave the cost by bringing in a handyman.
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