Moonlighting

[emahler]

Bob,

quick reply to an earlier post - no, getting rid of all moonlighters (illegal that is) would not make running a business in NJ a panacea. However, throwing up our hands and saying "there's nothing we can do" will only make a bad situation worse.

I just get really offended when we pay 6 figures every year in taxes, insurances, payroll, benefits, etc in order to follow the laws, and some guy with 3 yrs experience thinks he is justifiable to work without following any rules (all the while with his freight being paid by his law abiding employer)

So, I guess, maybe NJ is a little more sensitive to it. Maybe if I lived in PA where there is no licensing requirement (outside of paying the different towns their pound of flesh) I wouldn't care so much.

But, here in the great state of New Germany, I refuse to play fair and get kicked in the nuts by those who cheat.

If I walked up to you and kicked you in the nuts, would you stand there and smile and say "oh, well, nothing I can do about it..deal with it" No, you'd probably deck me. Well, since I will, as a law abiding citizen, go to jail for decking a moonlighter, what other options do I have?

 

[iwire]

However, throwing up our hands and saying "there's nothing we can do" will only make a bad situation worse.

IMO you are trying to appear to be fighting the good fight, standing up for what is right.

But how is this thread doing anything to change the situation?

As far as I can tell the only thing that this thread has, will or can accomplish is hard feelings between the members here.

So I guess I have to ask this.

What exactly do you expect to learn or accomplish with this thread?

 

[dunk76]

I am a state licensed electrical contractor. I went through a four year apprenticeship and received my journeymans card in 1984. Once I became a journeyman I worked in the industrial electrical field for 8 years before deciding I had enough working for people that had less experience/knowledge as me. My wife and I decided it would be best to get my license to conduct an electrical contracting business but in order to continue living in the style we were liked I continued to work my 40hr day job while moonlighting in evenings and sometimes through the night depending on dead lines on my business. I NEVER approached customers that I worked for during the day job as I felt this was unethical to both my employer and their customers. I do believe that it is ethical to get your own customers. Customers will always go to or come back to quality work completed on time at fair pricing.
I am now working full time with the business and doing well. I believe moonlighting is okay and is part of the american way of bettering yourself as long as you do it correctly.

 

[stickboy1375]

I do have to say I've learned alot in this thread alone, Things I never really gave much thought, I try and be open minded and not fight to the death because I think I'm right... I do want to thank everyone for keeping it fair and definitely keeping it real.... Merry Christmas!!!

 

[petersonra]

A company like Wal-Mart hawks the lowest prices. How is that accomplished? By squeezing BOTH the supplier and employee.

Actually this is provable false. Wal-Mart does tend to squeeze their suppliers but their pay and benefits for their employees are relatively generous compared to the retailers they often are claimed to have displaced.

Wal-Mart is the largest private employer in the US. If they were so mean to their employees, they would have a revolt on their hand. The fact is that other than a few agitators and union organizers, most WalMart employees know that as far as retail goes, they have it pretty good. It is just that the troublemakers get all the press.

 

[iwire]

Actually this is provable false.

IMO you are terribly misinformed about Walmart and it's practices.

It is not all about orginized labor.

In most areas the employees can not 'revolt' as they have no place else to go.

If your interested start here Is Walmart Good for America

 

[emahler]

bob to answer your last question...

this thread was intended to do exactly this:

I do have to say I've learned alot in this thread alone, Things I never really gave much thought, I try and be open minded and not fight to the death because I think I'm right... I do want to thank everyone for keeping it fair and definitely keeping it real.... Merry Christmas!!!

Get people to think about the other point of view. realize that actions we take have effects, whether we see them or not. Realize that without sound business principles in this world, none of us have a job or a career. We will all be "moonlighting" to put food on our tables.

Maybe far fetched? But impossible?

I don't think there are any hard feelings that were not already present. I think people who read this thread will hopefully pause and give thought to what they do in this world.

But in reality, this thread will be forgotten in 2 days, and there will be 20 threads lasting 10 pages each on which panel is better, or which brand of devices are better, or how to switch a receptacle.

But without the business part of "electrical business" none of us could afford to live on the money made from switching a receptacle.

Have a Merry Christmas everyone....

 

[emahler]

BTW - you and I are in agreement on Wal-Mart.

 

[satcom]

"What exactly do you expect to learn or accomplish with this thread?"

Bring to the front an issue, that concerns those of us involved in the day to day business of electrical contracting, and as said in another post, may pay 6 figures or more every year in taxes, insurances, payroll, benefits, in order to follow the laws, then someone, comes along and thinks he is justifiable to work without following any of the laws, paying any of the taxes, and has no respect for the consumers rights, while we continue as employers to pay the freight, and i think we want everyone to understand the owners side of the issue, when any subject is discussed there may be a difference of opinion, but bring both sides together, and hearing their view should not create hard feelings.

 

[iwire]

BTW - you and I are in agreement on Wal-Mart.

Did you get to see the Frontline show?

Bad things are coming down the road for this Country and it will make this moonlighting issue seem insignificant.

 

[satcom]

Stickboy, din't cut and run either, he hung in here, and gave his views, which allows us to see, if there is something we should change, in our way of doing business.

Merry Christmas

 

[iwire]

Merry Christmas

And you as well.

Bob

 

[Overkill]

Overkill, your name fits. Your arguements are spurious and melodramatic.

We live in a society that is already governed by rules. Your false anarchist feelings are not the answer. Even Bob agreed on that when I suggested doing away with all licenses and uncumbering those of us who follow the rules and the laws.

Now, is the answer to not qualify anyone for their ability to do a particular job? Celtic made a great point (albeit outlandish) but not any different from what you are saying (truth be told, I'm not positive that you even know your argument....it appears to simply be an argument of of disagreement for the sake of disagreement)

Stick- I am against it for several reasons 1) the law thing (again, get pulled over driving without a license, in an unregistered and uninsured car, see what happens) 2)Prove that it doesn't artificially keep prices down (thereby limiting the money that can be paid to employees) - we've already gone over this.

But mostly, you and I have different morals and ethics regarding this. To you the ends justifies the means...To me, I figure I can make my way without hurting (on purpose) those around me. Don't know which of us is right, but I know that I am doing the best that I can to protect everyone around me.

Overkill where are you from? PA?

Im from NY. In my county, no license is required.

I may have gotten off on a little tangent there, but my biggest gripe is your claim that moonlighters are bringing down wages. I asked for proof, for data, anything. All I got was that its "untraceabe." So I'm expected to believe an unprovable claim based solely on the fact that some guy on the internet said so.

 

[celtic]

An educated consumer is all I deal with, and I don't have the unlicensed, unisured "moonlighting" problems that you are talking about.

It may require another look into, before you say it's "ass-backwards".

Let's take a look....what Utopia do you live in?

Pa.

I see now....

Correct me where I am wrong here....
In Pa. there is no State license. ( http://www.mikeholt.com/statelicense.php#PA )
Each locality is free to set the standard as high or as low as they chose to.
The local license may not be accepted in the next locality.

 

[celtic]

Actually this is provable false. Wal-Mart does tend to squeeze their suppliers but their pay and benefits for their employees are relatively generous compared to the retailers they often are claimed to have displaced.

Wal-Mart is the largest private employer in the US. If they were so mean to their employees, they would have a revolt on their hand. The fact is that other than a few agitators and union organizers, most WalMart employees know that as far as retail goes, they have it pretty good. It is just that the troublemakers get all the press.

IMO you are terribly misinformed about Walmart and it's practices.

I have to agree with iwire here.
I have to agree because what he states is simply true.

Do a little research on the subject and you will come to see the light also, here a few to get you started:
AlterNet: Wal-Mart Coverage: Will Labor Take the Wal-Mart Challenge?

WALMARTREPORT.pdf (application/pdf Object)

Wal-Mart ordered to pay workers $78 million - Oct. 13, 2006

frontline: is wal-mart good for america?: watch the full program online | PBS
( an EXCELLANT find ~ if I don't say so myself )

 

[celtic]

I I asked for proof, for data, anything. All I got was that its "untraceabe." So I'm expected to believe an unprovable claim based solely on the fact that some guy on the internet said so.

Can you prove otherwise?

We can show that the cost for operating a legitimate business that includes TRUE over head costs which include, but are not limited to:

• Accounting & Legal Expenses
• Advertising & Marketing Expenses
• Bank & Government Charges
• Water, Gas & Electricity Expenses
• General Insurance Expenses
• Interest Paid
• Motor Vehicles (Gas, Petrol, Service, Parking, etc.)
• Printing, Postage & Stationery
• Office Rent / Lease Expenses
• Subscriptions, Licenses & Education
• Telephone Expenses (Mobile Phones, 2-Way, etc.)
• Salaries/Wages For non-Chargeable Staff (Storeman, Supervisors, etc.)
• Directors' Fees / Expenses
• Depreciation of Vehicles, Plant & Equipment

Here..you do the math:
Business Owners' Cost Calculator - MasterPlumbers.com

A guy working out of his trunk will have very few, if any, of these expenses. Even the most basic of business students would be able to establish that a legit contractor will be required to charge a higher fee for their services than the "Man with a van that installs ceiling fans".

I'll put the ball back in YOUR court and show me how an illegal contractor does not do ANY damage to wages.
I use the term ANY specifically to allow you any and all options to bolster your claim...otherwise we are back to:

I'm expected to believe an unprovable claim based solely on the fact that some guy on the internet said so.

But now, you're that guy.

 

[celtic]

BTW...

Merry Christmas

Happy Chanukah
​

Happy Kwanzaa.
​

or in general
​

HAPPY HOLIDAYS​

 

[Tori]

I'll very queitly tell you what is said in the circles I work - the side work hacks - of which I used to be a part of and my employer does'nt care -though my union does - is that we are stealing non union work and hurting them rather than our union contractors whom do commercial/industrial work

Merry Christmas and happy b-day to my son -a christmas eve baby

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Bad things are coming down the road for this Country and it will make this moonlighting issue seem insignificant.

I have been saying this same things for a while, and a lot of people just blow me off and tell me how much of a pessimist I am.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

From Bob's link:

Back in the late 1970s, Sam Walton, Wal-Mart's founder, first began scouring the globe for cheap imports. But Sam Walton was not the first. Sears, Montgomery Ward, JCPenney and Kmart got to Asia ahead of Walton, and for several years Wal-Mart lagged behind them in global sourcing.

You can't really blame Wal-Mart, they just do it better than all the rest.