Moonlighting

[emahler]

That's crossing the line from "stealing from the cookie jar" into "dealing crack" IMO. Time to get an EC license in that case, no question.

George, ironically you and I agree on this one.

 

[JohnJ0906]

As an employee, all I want is a fair wage for a fair days work. Why on earth I would wish to strap my tools back on in the evening or weekend is beyond me. I work to live, not live to work. I have the highest respect for my present employer, and the rest of the management at my company. I know how hard they work. It also comes from the fact that I have worked side-by-side with them. Thay also resect me, and know how hard I work for them. I have had HOs ask if I was intrested in doing work for them on the side and I tell them straight up that I don't steal from my boss. I have known people who got fired for exactly that, and, IMHO, deserved it. IMO, if someone is not making a living wage at where they work, it's time to move on. I have worked in the past for a company where I felt I was not respected for the work I did, and I moved on. I have read what seems to be a lot of employer-vs-employee here, but we do need each other, ya know! I don't understand everything that is involved with running a buisiness, and I recognize that.

 

[Dnkldorf]

This thread reminds me of something written by P. Lutus...


In the largest sense, American society is breaking into two classes:

* The first class are people who know how to think. These people realize that most problems are open to examination and creative solution. If a problem appears in the lives of these people, their intellectual training will quickly lead them to a solution or an alternative statement of the problem. These people are the source of the most important product in today's economy — ideas.

* The second class, the vast majority of Americans, are people who cannot think for themselves. I call these people "idea consumers" — metaphorically speaking, they wander around in a gigantic open-air mall of facts and ideas. The content of their experience is provided by television, the Internet and other shallow data pools. These people believe collecting images and facts makes them educated and competent, and all their experiences reinforce this belief. The central, organizing principle of this class is that ideas come from somewhere else, from magical persons, geniuses, "them."

Amen......

Now comes the discussion on how tests will solve all the problems? Cut me a break.....

For $400, there are handfuls of guys who teach classes in NJ, have all the answers to the test, and can pretty much guarentee you a passing grade.
Unless your a total bonehead.
And I bet some here actually took these guys courses, just to pass the test, and now they are the ALMIGHTY contractor.
But they won't admit to it, of course....

Tests are the answer....Pls...

 

[celtic]

Yes, test everybody, tests are the answer!

So, when can we schedule your eye exam?
You better bring cash also as I do not accept check, credit cards, or chickens and cows.

Well if the eye exams don't pan out, you can always do brain transplants.....

That's next weeks special!
These operations have to be done at your residence as I can't have people lounging about in my garage and drinking all my beer.

 

[celtic]

Celtic made a great point (albeit outlandish) ....

Yes, I went WAYYYYY out in left field there - to make the point.
A more realistic version:

Here in NJ, a barber or hair dresser must be licensed by the State Board. What dangers would the average customers' head be in danger from?

I don't know - I don't really care....BUT, the fact remains - The State has developed an accepted minimum standard that those wishing to practice their trade - be it eye exams, brain surgery or cutting hair - MUST prove they meet that minimum standard.

Our friend Dnkldorf seems to be of the opinion that testing is not the answer. If testing is not the answer - what is? Trail and error? I think that was covered during the Dark Ages and the Salem Witch hunts.

The NEC is an accepted minimum standard. Those wishing to engage in the business of electrical contracting must meet a minimum standard that, generally, is matching the NEC.

This accepted minimum standard has been engrained in our heads from the time of elementary school....although this minimum seems to going the wayside with the ingenious "No Child Left Behind Policy". How does this sort of policy help, not only the general public, but that particular individual? There has been case after case where "Johnny can't read" while entering secondary school. Is this the person YOU want delivering YOUR baby? (That's my Valentine's Day special - I'll accept a 9 month lay-away plan on that ~ cash only).

To say "Testing is not the answer" is erroneous.
Testing IS the only acceptable way to establish an individual's abilities.

If any should disagree - I am open for debate ....just don't bring a simple statement to the table.

 

[iwire]

I am curious why this is such a volatile topic with our NJ members?

I know Dale is not from NJ but I think 99% of the post here are from NJ.

This is not meant as a slam just a real question.

 

[celtic]

IS your heart really that big that you care if someone gets hurt?

Whenever someone gets hurt due an electrical incident, it simply re-enforces the need to have bona-fide contractors doing the work.
IF one of installations should cause harm to person or property, what is the affected individuals recourse?

Or do you really think this changes your wages as well as an employee? (I would love to see the hard evidence on this one)

I would love to see hard evidence DISPROVE it.
I'll go first....
A company like Wal-Mart hawks the lowest prices. How is that accomplished? By squeezing BOTH the supplier and employee. Of course this is on a grander scale, but it started somewhere....

Your turn.

Or is this the most HONEST forum in the world that nobody here ever breaks any laws/rules?

Everyone breaks the law - a simple fact of life.
Generally speaking, your speeders and tax evaders actions affect that one single person - they alone suffer the consequences.
Taking it one step further, a drunk driver speeding crashes in the minivan full of kids - this individual's actions have now had an impact on others - and that changes everything.

Again, IF one of installations should cause harm to person or property, what is the affected individuals recourse?

I guess you'll get sued ...if the affected individuals can determine your last name, address, etc.
Of course you answer will be along the lines of :
- it can't happen, I stay within code
- they can't find me
etc

Fact is, it can happen and it does happen. A complete industry was spawned off the whole "What if" scenario - insurance.

Or is it the fact that you all have something in common being EC's that this is an easy subject to gang up on?

It's not that you're an easy mark - it is simply that the ECs have taken their own time and paid good money to be able to call themselves CONTRACTOR.
I stated this earlier in post #234

Yesterday, 04:22 PM.
So, yes - we ECs have something in common.

I guarantee if you all have a talk with your employee's you will learn a lot from them... What they think of you and how you run YOUR business, and how moonlighting is acceptable with the current cost of living...

Of course the employee knows how to run the business better than the owner.

Not every EC can pay high wages... thats just not realistic... and to prove it, how would you feel if McDonald's charged you $10 for a burger so his employee can have a somewhat decent income? And just for fun, try living off one of your employee's paychecks for a month or so...

That's a weak comparison at best.
You could easily get a burger at Hooter's for $10.
The staff at Hooter's might make more than the flippers at Mickey D's ...they might also get tip money that catapults their gross much higher than minimum wage.

Maybe you could get a job at an upscale burger joint to suppliment your income?

I think the better question to be answered is:
Why can some ECs pay their men better than others?

You figure that out, jump ship, spend some more time with your family and the dead dog doesn't need to be beaten anymore.

 

[celtic]

I am curious why this is such a volatile topic with our NJ members?

I know Dale is not from NJ but I think 99% of the post here are from NJ.

This is not meant as a slam just a real question.

We make more money per hour in NJ so we have more time to chit-chat on the internet!

:grin:

 

[emahler]

I am curious why this is such a volatile topic with our NJ members?

I know Dale is not from NJ but I think 99% of the post here are from NJ.

This is not meant as a slam just a real question.

really simple...the costs and the legal hoops that are associated with operating a legitimate business in NJ are phenominal. It really burns your chaps when someone feels that they are above it and that the rules don't apply to them.

Simple as that for me.

 

[Dnkldorf]

Our friend Dnkldorf seems to be of the opinion that testing is not the answer. If testing is not the answer - what is?

Well my friend, there is no answer. It will always happen, and you ain't going to stop it. Nothing will stop someone from making a couple extra bucks here and there.

Live with it.

 

[iwire]

really simple...the costs and the legal hoops that are associated with operating a legitimate business in NJ are phenominal. It really burns your chaps when someone feels that they are above it and that the rules don't apply to them.

Simple as that for me.

I hear you.

But was that not the situation when you opened your business?

Let me ask this.

If you could click your heels together and eliminate all these side jobbers would that make running a business in NJ all peaches and cream?

I am not saying your view is wrong, only that it is hard for me to understand.

 

[Dnkldorf]

I am curious why this is such a volatile topic with our NJ members?

Won't even touch this one....

 

[iwire]

We make more money per hour in NJ so we have more time to chit-chat on the internet!

:grin:

Cool, I like that answer, and I am also glad that everyone has been doing a great job keeping this thread on the subject without swinging fists at each other.

 

[mdshunk]

I am curious why this is such a volatile topic with our NJ members?

The (speculative) answer to that question would necessarily involve discussing organized labor, which is not permitted to be discussed here.

 

[growler]

Well my friend, there is no answer. It will always happen, and you ain't going to stop it. Nothing will stop someone from making a couple extra bucks here and there.

The first guy to say that was Al Capone. Guess What! They did. Tax evasion.

I figure stickboy is exagerating his income but if he were telling the truth then he would owe about a million bucks in back taxes , penalties & interest ( it adds up quick ).

Even the goverment won't try to stop a man from making a buck or two but when you make enough bucks, watch out.

 

[iwire]

The first guy to say that was Al Capone. Guess What! They did. Tax evasion.

Are you suggesting that the fall of Al C. eliminated crime?

The Gvt could nail a guy every day and another will fall in right behind.

 

[growler]

The Gvt could nail a guy every day and another will fall in right behind.

Lots of money to be made building prisons.

 

[JohnE]

Wow, get a little busy around the holidays and look what you miss. I'll have to catch up on these few hundred posts later. I'm sure I missed some good discussions.

 

[Dnkldorf]

There may be an answer on how to slow this practice.
(Captain Morgan got me thinking)

You would have to educate the public, on the burdens of not using licensed insured contractors, and this might slow the pace down.

However, the state would either have to charge you contractors for it in the way of higher premiums, or taxes, or something,or you would have to make this a consorted effort by the contractors themselves.
Like the mlk industry does.

Don't count on the government to take the lead on this....

 

[iwire]

Lots of money to be made building prisons.

IMO it would be a severe waste of my our tax money to jail all the moonlighters.

But of course I used to Moonlight (legally) and I do not run a business.


NJs idea to fine the heck out them seems like a more sensible idea. :smile: