Moonlighting

[iwire]

While that may be true, it is equally true that in some areas it is considered illegal - and it's important to state that fact also and not just downplay the whole concept.

Agreed.

But neither point is more important than the other to convey.

Here is my quick take on this.

IMO it seems we have a couple of camps here.

One group hears the word Moonlighter and immediately assumes a person that breaks every possible rule.

The other group hears Moonlighter and just assumes a licensed electrician doing work on their own time outside of the 40 hours they have done at the full time job.

The Moonlighters that I know fit in the second group.

They do not break any law, they do not put their customers at anymore risk than another EC. However they do have a very real advantage in that their overhead is almost nothing.

I have respect for these people that I know, they work hard at the full time job and than go and work hard at night.

That dedication has provided them nice housing and plenty of toys to play with.

Me....? I have not done a side job in years.

 

[iwire]

I think you can grow pot in Alaska but that doesn't change the laws in other states.

Agreed.

But why do you feel that what the rules are in your area have more importance than the rules in my area?

What I am saying is both facts are equal in importance.

Many here are painting all moonlighters with a broad brush saying they are all lawbreaking sleaze.

That is not true, there are sleaze moon lighters just as there are sleaze contractors that have a business license.

There are also moonlighters that are top notch and provide a good service, to have these folks compared to crack dealers is a bit over dramatic.

Bob

 

[aline]

I see it that way... A hack homeowner can do his own work, yet you don't complain, Home Depot, Lowe's, etc, sell parts and give advice on installing electrical, you don't complain, I come in, And I just committed the biggest crime of the century? Who's kidding who...

Who says I don't complain about a hack homeowner doing his own electrical. I complain about it all the time.
I'm also not sure where anyone acussed you of commiting the biggest crime of the century. I must have missed this.

I often run across unsafe wiring done by hack homeowners. I don't care if the homeowner hack wants to risk his own life with his unsafe electrical work but he's putting his kids at risk as well as someone elses kids when he sells the home and they move in or when my kids are at his house playing.

I have a neighbor with a hot tub. My kids had been over there in it.
I found out he wired it himself and it didn't have GFCI protection.
My kids are no longer allowed to use their hot tub.

Around here you can't buy freon for your cars air conditioner without a license because they're afraid you might hurt the enviroment.

I had the spring on my garage door break. I used to work for a company that installed garage doors and have replaced a lot of these springs so I have the winding bars and the know how to do this job. When I tried to purchase a spring for my garage door no one would sell me one because I wasn't a licensed installer.

Yet you can buy all the electrical stuff you want and put the life of your family and your neighbors family in danger.

This seems screwed up to me.

Most people wouldn't even consider installing their own gas lines. But have no problem installing their own electrical.

I don't know of too many people that are killed from a leaking water line done by a hack homeowner but electrical is another story.

Yes I complain about hack homeowners but it does about as much good as complaining about illegal moonlighters.

Maybe they should require either an electrical license or an electrical permit from the city in order to purchase electrical supplies other than switches, receptacles and light fixtures.

 

[emahler]

for the purpose of this thread, moonlighter was defined as an unlicensed and uninsured individual doing work for pay.

Bob- Mass apparently lets licensed journeymen (you do have a state license for that correct?) with insurance perform work under specific conditions. No problem.

NJ, does not have journeymen's license (at least not one that is worth anything) and there is no provision for doing paid electrical work without a contractors license, insurance and business permit. No problem there.

But the guy that has a few years experience, no license, no insurance and no real business doing anything outside of the coverage of his company. That's the problem that we are discussing.

I have a feeling you are simply playing devil's advocate here, keep doing it. The words and experiences of everyone here is priceless.

But in terms of living in fear - I agree. Everyday I risk being thrown in jail. I drive most of the day, usually 10 mph over the speed limit, not wearing my seatbelt (mandatory in NJ) and sometimes talking on my cellphone without an earpiece.

But - my drivers license is valid, my vehicles are registered and insured. I take necessary precautions to avoid potential downfalls. That's not living in fear, that's being responsible.

Now, back to electric. As a licensed, insured and registered electrical contractor if I backstab a switch with #12 wire (a no-no) violate any of the other 9 million codes that we have, but none are truly a safety hazard, that can be akin to my no seatbelt, speeding, cellphone rampage.

But, if I screw up and something bad happens, I'm licensed and insured to cover it. My license can be pulled and I have to face the consequences of my actions.

If a non-licensed, non-insured "moonlighter" performs electrical work, it's akin to driving without a license, in an unregistered and unisured car. At that point, does it even matter if he was speeding, wearing his seatbelt or talking on the phone?

 

[aline]

I admit I've moonlighted both illegally and legally.

When I moonlighted illegally I was in my late teens and early twenty's. I was working as an apprentice electrician and freinds and family would ask me to do electrical work for them. At the time I had no clue about licensing laws, insurance, etc. I had no idea that doing work for them and accepting money was illegal.

I was working plenty of hours and didn't need extra money and didn't really want to do these jobs but didn't know how to say no to freinds and family.
Had I known it was illegal and I could be fined I would've had a good exuse to not do the work for them.

I finally got tired of spending my free time doing side jobs for freinds and family so I eventually learned to just say no. It wasn't until later I found out about the fines and that it wasn't legal. They also didn't get the best job either. As an apprentice I thought I knew everything but in reallity I knew very little. Looking back on it I realize how many jobs I did that weren't code compliant.

I went to work as an industrial electrician at a manufacturing plant and after working a lot of overtime there I started to become dependent on this overtime when suddenly the cut out all overtime. I decided to start moonlighting to make up for the lack of overtime. This time I wanted it to be all legal so I got my masters license and then my contractors license and all the necessary insurance. I tried to price my jobs based on what it would cost me if I was in business full time. I paid myself a salary for office work and an hourly wage when working in the field as an electrician. I also factored in a profit as well.

I ran my business part time for about seven years before I felt I was ready to go at it full time. I thought I was completely prepared. There's nothing like actually doing it to find out just how hard it is. It's a lot different when you don't have other income to back you up and now have only yourself to rely upon.

It's not moonlighting that upsets me so much as the guys moonlighting and setting their prices so low. I just wish they would set their prices closer to what they would need to be if they were running a legit or full time business.

Why not set your prices based on what it would cost if you were actually in business for yourself full time?

You say you're moonlighting because you need the money. Wouldn't this help even more if your prices were higher?

The thing I have a problem with is when a customer thinks my price is too high because some moonlighter is giving him a price that's half of what mine is and the customer doesn't know the guys moonlighting and not doing it legally.

The customer assumes we're both licensed contractors working legally with the same insurance requirments. I always make sure the customer knows I'm licensed and insured but they never ask for proof. I'm sure if the customer thinks to ask the illegal moonlighter if he's licensed and insured he'll tell them he is.

The customer doesn't know he means he has a journeymans license and health insurance provided by his full time employer.

I've had people tell me the electrician they usually have do a job like this only charged $50 but he's too busy right now with his other job and doesn't have time to do it. They want to know why I'm charging them so much. I must be some kind of crook trying to take advantage of them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if your going to moonlight why not charge as if you had the expenses of operating a legit or full time business. You'll make more money and if you decide to become legit or full time your prices will already be high enough to do so.

These people don't care about you all they care about is getting you to work for them at the lowest possible price.

You're selling them the most valuable thing you own. You're selling them your time. You only have so much of it to spend with your family doing things you enjoy.

How do you put a price on that?

How much would they be willing to sell you their time for?

Based on some of the pricing I see out there some people don't place much value on their time.
In my opinion the whole electrical industry is under priced and the customer is reaping the rewards at our expense.

Just because you can beat everyones price doesn't mean you should.

 

[tonyou812]

I for one get really irritated if some one asks me to do work for them behind my bosses back so they can save a couple of bucks. Thell be like "oh ive got alot more things to do around here if your interested " screw you do it your self. id rather put money into my 401k. Oh and the last time i moonlighted i got screwed out of almost 1000 bucks because i think the people knew how it worked in my situation. the only time i might consider is if its for family and i usually get paid in meatballs or cheese pie, so i guess that doesnt count

 

[emahler]

I for one get really irritated if some one asks me to do work for them behind my bosses back so they can save a couple of bucks. Thell be like "oh ive got alot more things to do around here if your interested " screw you do it your self. id rather put money into my 401k. Oh and the last time i moonlighted i got screwed out of almost 1000 bucks because i think the people knew how it worked in my situation. the only time i might consider is if its for family and i usually get paid in meatballs or cheese pie, so i guess that doesnt count

tony, you aren't the first person to get beat for money...enough unscrupulous people will hire moonlighters with no intention of ever paying...what's the moonlighter gonna do?

for the record, helping family and friends for beer and food does not constitute moonlighting. My rule is, beer and food and I'll supervise. But if I gotta pick up a tool, it'll cost you good

 

[mdshunk]

for the purpose of this thread, moonlighter was defined as an unlicensed and uninsured individual doing work for pay.

Sorry, that wasn't clear to me until now.

I thought you were talking about the practice of moonlighting in general, and what deleterious effect it might or might not have on the electrical industry from an economic standpoint. This thread has taken many twist and turns, weaving through warnings about working without a business license, and how moonlight work may be of poor quality.

You should have titled your thread, "Who benefits from criminal activity", and it would have been more clear what you were getting at. As I take a more Libertarian approach to such things, I personally don't understand why it should ever be illegal for a man to earn a living, and don't understand why he should need special permission from a government to do so. As a realist however, I understand that it is illegal to do so without the proper licenses and insurances, and should not be done.

 

[satcom]

"why he should need special permission from a government to do so."

The goverment in this case, provides the testing, to show their level of knowledge, and qualify them for the consumers protection.
Not a special permission, rather something you earn, form experience, and accumlated knowledge.


"I personally don't understand why it should ever be illegal for a man to earn a living"

The illegal part of earning a living comes in when someone is earning a living in a Licensed Occupation, and is not Licensed, they either did not apply for, or are not qualified for that occupation.


"As I take a more Libertarian approach"

I do also. less goverment, but when it comes to life safety, they have the resources.

 

[celtic]

As I take a more Libertarian approach to such things, I personally don't understand why it should ever be illegal for a man to earn a living, and don't understand why he should need special permission from a government to do so.

I'm convinced that you need no special permission from a gov't body to earn a living.

I have decide the EC business is too over run with hacks, moonlighters and wanna-be's.

I will now be known as Dr. Celtic.
I can perform all surgerys at low cost in your own home or in my garage.
As I am new to this side of the operating table, I will be running weekly specials.

This weeks special:
Eye Exams ~ $29.95
How hard can it be?
I'll give you a pair of mine...you tell me if it's too strong or too weak and we'll take it from there....

 

[emahler]

I'm convinced that you need no special permission from a gov't body to earn a living.

I have decide the EC business is too over run with hacks, moonlighters and wanna-be's.

I will now be known as Dr. Celtic.
I can perform all surgerys at low cost in your own home or in my garage.
As I am new to this side of the operating table, I will be running weekly specials.

This weeks special:
Eye Exams ~ $29.95
How hard can it be?
I'll give you a pair of mine...you tell me if it's too strong or too weak and we'll take it from there....

Hey, I'm in...but can you cut me a deal? say $25.99?

What would people think to 2 licenses being required to open an electrical contracting business? 1 being a technical, 1 being a business. Both being real tests, requiring real knowledge to pass. No one would be "stopped from earning a living" unless they were incapable of passing the tests, and therefore probably incapable of running a company. They are then free to go work for someone else.

Celt, listen, if I bring my own paper to put on the eye exam machine, and bring my own eyechart, do you think we might be able to go to $24.99?

 

[Overkill]

Ignorance is bliss......

Perhaps we should all bow down, surrender our constitution and become a communist nation. We need a government to dictate who is qualified to do what, when they can do it and where they can do it! That would stop moonlighters. Thoes evil doers!

While were at it, why dont we dictate how much one can make. An EC makes too much, let the government decide what your worth. Lets create tests to decide if your a worthy EC.

Yes, test everybody, tests are the answer!

 

[Overkill]

This thread reminds me of something written by P. Lutus...


In the largest sense, American society is breaking into two classes:

* The first class are people who know how to think. These people realize that most problems are open to examination and creative solution. If a problem appears in the lives of these people, their intellectual training will quickly lead them to a solution or an alternative statement of the problem. These people are the source of the most important product in today's economy ? ideas.

* The second class, the vast majority of Americans, are people who cannot think for themselves. I call these people "idea consumers" ? metaphorically speaking, they wander around in a gigantic open-air mall of facts and ideas. The content of their experience is provided by television, the Internet and other shallow data pools. These people believe collecting images and facts makes them educated and competent, and all their experiences reinforce this belief. The central, organizing principle of this class is that ideas come from somewhere else, from magical persons, geniuses, "them."

 

[satcom]

Well if the eye exams don't pan out, you can always do brain transplants,
just do them on weekends, and nights after the medical board goes home,
just don't forget to pick up the doners and recipents, in an unmarked van, you can get the surgery supplies at one of the box stores or have them supply their own, we would not want to stop you from making a living, and if the police try to stop you, let them know they are stepping on the constitution.

 

[satcom]

Overkill,

Critical thinking, is not a new concept, many papers have been published on the subject, TV and all the other fast paced means of modern communications, has helped dumb down the creative mind, and problem solving, is something others do, it is amazing to see Leno, go to the street, and ask grade school questions to adults, and get a deer in the headlight look.

Just keep a positive outlook, an do what you can.

 

[stickboy1375]

Not to keep beating this dead dog, but I really wanted an honest answer when I ask this, what is the REAL thing you have a problem with someone moonlighting? )(And I don't want to hear because its the law) IS your heart really that big that you care if someone gets hurt? Or do you really think this changes your wages as well as an employee? (I would love to see the hard evidence on this one) Or is this the most HONEST forum in the world that nobody here ever breaks any laws/rules? Or is it the fact that you all have something in common being EC's that this is an easy subject to gang up on? I guarantee if you all have a talk with your employee's you will learn a lot from them... What they think of you and how you run YOUR business, and how moonlighting is acceptable with the current cost of living... Not every EC can pay high wages... thats just not realistic... and to prove it, how would you feel if McDonald's charged you $10 for a burger so his employee can have a somewhat decent income? And just for fun, try living off one of your employee's paychecks for a month or so...

 

[George Stolz]

Or is this the most HONEST forum in the world that nobody here ever breaks any laws/rules?

Stick, if you're done martyring yourself, others have admitted to breaking the laws of their state.

I guarantee if you all have a talk with your employee's you will learn a lot from them...

I don't think so. I found at my last job that most the employees were amazed the business stayed afloat, questioned a lot of the decisions made, and in general took a dim view of several aspects of the company. The suggestion box (which was anonymous) was usually empty, and if many were directly asked they would not speak out in a negative fashion out of fear.

...how moonlighting is acceptable with the current cost of living...

Back the truck up here. If a worker is counting on sidework to pay the bills, the law should come down like an anvil, IMO. You can't blame your employer for not living within your means. I drive a crummy good-gas mileage car, even though I'd love to have been able to drive my Blazer around for the past two years.

how would you feel if McDonald's charged you $10 for a burger...

That's why McDonalds is an entry-level job. You make entry-level pay, because: the skill-set can be trained in months, the work is not terribly dangerous, no experience is necessary, etc.

If you're making minimum wage working for an EC, then you obviously need to go somewhere else. I would not make up for no raise by doing sidework, I would start applying around.

try living off one of your employee's paychecks for a month or so...

A few pages back, a comment was made about who takes the risks. There needs to be some respect for the guy who signs your check. I don't expect my boss to "walk a mile in my shoes", it's silly.

 

[growler]

If you're making minimum wage working for an EC, then you obviously need to go somewhere else. I would not make up for no raise by doing sidework, I would start applying around.

George, the stickboy said earlier that he makes 65K a years from his job and the same amount doing side work. Do really think there are a lot of 130K jobs around for journeyman electricians. If I find one I'll take it myself.

Having that last 65K tax free isn't bad either.

 

[George Stolz]

George, the stickboy said earlier that he makes 65K a years from his job and the same amount doing side work.

That's crossing the line from "stealing from the cookie jar" into "dealing crack" IMO. Time to get an EC license in that case, no question.

 

[emahler]

Overkill, your name fits. Your arguements are spurious and melodramatic.

We live in a society that is already governed by rules. Your false anarchist feelings are not the answer. Even Bob agreed on that when I suggested doing away with all licenses and uncumbering those of us who follow the rules and the laws.

Now, is the answer to not qualify anyone for their ability to do a particular job? Celtic made a great point (albeit outlandish) but not any different from what you are saying (truth be told, I'm not positive that you even know your argument....it appears to simply be an argument of of disagreement for the sake of disagreement)

Stick- I am against it for several reasons 1) the law thing (again, get pulled over driving without a license, in an unregistered and uninsured car, see what happens) 2)Prove that it doesn't artificially keep prices down (thereby limiting the money that can be paid to employees) - we've already gone over this.

But mostly, you and I have different morals and ethics regarding this. To you the ends justifies the means...To me, I figure I can make my way without hurting (on purpose) those around me. Don't know which of us is right, but I know that I am doing the best that I can to protect everyone around me.

Overkill where are you from? PA?