new title 24 requirements effective 01-01-14 in calif.......

[cowboyjwc]

I perused the website, and near as I can tell the 10 hour online prep coursework is free (but don't worry, they'll get your money in the end).

I've spent over a decade doing instrumentation and controls before going into business for myself. This whole thing is disgusting.

I tell a contractor that I need the lights installed and his OLTG-INST and OLTG-2A form before I can sign off final inspection. I show up to the job and all of the exterior lights are blanked off and he tell's me that they are still three weeks out. He then hands me the completed forms.

OK how can you complete the forms if the lights aren't installed and one of the first lines on the forms say's "...under the penelty of perjury".

Most contractors aren't filling out the forms, most don't know about the forms, most are just adding lights no matter what the plans say, or changing the type of lights that are speced on the lighting forms. SOOOOO, since you guys can't seem to do what you've been asked to do and the state was allowing you to self certify your jobs, which most chose not to, then they have to take over and do it for you.

They don't make the rules tougher, because everyone is doing such a good job.:happysad:

 

[Sierrasparky]

I tell a contractor that I need the lights installed and his OLTG-INST and OLTG-2A form before I can sign off final inspection. I show up to the job and all of the exterior lights are blanked off and he tell's me that they are still three weeks out. He then hands me the completed forms.

OK how can you complete the forms if the lights aren't installed and one of the first lines on the forms say's "...under the penelty of perjury".

Most contractors aren't filling out the forms, most don't know about the forms, most are just adding lights no matter what the plans say, or changing the type of lights that are speced on the lighting forms. SOOOOO, since you guys can't seem to do what you've been asked to do and the state was allowing you to self certify your jobs, which most chose not to, then they have to take over and do it for you.

They don't make the rules tougher, because everyone is doing such a good job.:happysad:

Cowboy - I think some blame also needs to be placed on the AHJ ( other than yours) for not requiring the forms in the fisrt place. I have looked at the training for the AHJ and it clearly states " YOU will require those forms or write a correction notice and fail the inspection"
So in the infinite wisdom of the CEC we gt these new rules.

I expect in the future that a building will need what is similar to a smog check for cars in order to remain complaint in the passing years. If the building does not pass I would assume the building utilities would then be shed or cut off until complaince.

 

[JDBrown]

...
I expect in the future that a building will need what is similar to a smog check for cars in order to remain complaint in the passing years. If the building does not pass I would assume the building utilities would then be shed or cut off until complaince.

Shhh! Don't give them any ideas...

 

[cowboyjwc]

Cowboy - I think some blame also needs to be placed on the AHJ ( other than yours) for not requiring the forms in the fisrt place. I have looked at the training for the AHJ and it clearly states " YOU will require those forms or write a correction notice and fail the inspection"
So in the infinite wisdom of the CEC we gt these new rules.

I expect in the future that a building will need what is similar to a smog check for cars in order to remain complaint in the passing years. If the building does not pass I would assume the building utilities would then be shed or cut off until complaince.

You know what? I will completely agree with you on that.

I do believe that there is something (but I can't find it right now) that if you are selling or leasing a commercial space you must provide the new tenents with a copy of the electrical usage, from the local POCO, for the building. I'm still looking into it and will let you know what I find out.

 

[sandsnow]

I have looked at the training for the AHJ and it clearly states " YOU will require those forms or write a correction notice and fail the inspection"

Where did you see this? Was it the new or old standards. Is that an exact quote or paraphrase?

I agree that ALL the AHJ's need to require the forms. Irks me to no end that some are not with the program.

Of course the CEC has some blame here for like ZERO outreach.

 

[sandsnow]

I tell a contractor that I need the lights installed and his OLTG-INST and OLTG-2A form before I can sign off final inspection. I show up to the job and all of the exterior lights are blanked off and he tell's me that they are still three weeks out. He then hands me the completed forms.

OK how can you complete the forms if the lights aren't installed and one of the first lines on the forms say's "...under the penelty of perjury".

Most contractors aren't filling out the forms, most don't know about the forms, most are just adding lights no matter what the plans say, or changing the type of lights that are speced on the lighting forms. SOOOOO, since you guys can't seem to do what you've been asked to do and the state was allowing you to self certify your jobs, which most chose not to, then they have to take over and do it for you.

They don't make the rules tougher, because everyone is doing such a good job.:happysad:

I got a full set of signed forms once and the job hadn't even started. They were on the plans.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I got a full set of signed forms once and the job hadn't even started. They were on the plans.

how efficient, and thoughtful.

unless i'm badly mistaken, again :dunce:, the -AT guy who does your certificate must be employed by an -AT listed contractor.
he cannot work directly for you, unless of course, you are an -AT contractor.

at this instant, here are the CALCTP-AT registered contractors:

ADEC, Inc.

Advance Lighting and Electric

Advanced Lighting and Electrical, Inc.

Caal Electrical Contractors, Inc.

Collins Electrical Company Inc.

DRE Power and Cabling Contractors, Inc.

Executive Lighting Services

M.B. Herzog Electric

O'Bryant Electric Inc.

On Target Electric Inc.

Positive Energy

R & R Controls, Inc

so, if you aren't on this list, you will have to contract with someone on this list to provide
this service, after new years....... ten of them, count them...... don't all crowd up at once now....

 

[Sierrasparky]

Has anyone actually read this new 2014 title 24 energy standard?

All I can say is wow.

One thing is see is that if you have a non- residential building and has a service 50 KVA or greater the EC must Disaggregate the circuits. Or in plain english. Group the circuits into common panels by type. Lighting , HVAC, receptacle loads, appliances, or other type of load. This is done so meetering can be done by type of load and load shedding can occur. I would think a remote managed breaker with load sensing would do the trick.

In larger buildings it will have to seperated by floor.

The crazy part is the CEC claims in the title of this chapter that....

"These requirements were developed with a reasonably practical eye. In asmall building or service, disaggregation is not required at all. The minimumthreshold of 50-kVA service means that almost all projects less than 5,000 sf​

will not be required to comply."

I guess that none of us install 200 amp 3ph 120/208 in building less than 5000 sqft. Can you say fast food joint.
You folks need to read this stuff

 

[JDBrown]

I got a full set of signed forms once and the job hadn't even started. They were on the plans.

On the other side of the coin, we've had a couple of inspectors tell us that we need to include the signed field testing forms on the plans. We had to patiently explain to them that we can only include and sign the design forms, not the testing forms -- those have to be filled out and signed by the installing Contractor. *sigh* Looks like we'll look back wistfully on these days in years to come...

 

[sandsnow]

Has anyone actually read this new 2014 title 24 energy standard?
Yep
All I can say is wow.
Double Wow

One thing is see is that if you have a non- residential building and has a service 50 KVA or greater the EC must Disaggregate the circuits. Or in plain english. Group the circuits into common panels by type. Lighting , HVAC, receptacle loads, appliances, or other type of load. This is done so meetering can be done by type of load and load shedding can occur. I would think a remote managed breaker with load sensing would do the trick.

In larger buildings it will have to seperated by floor.

The crazy part is the CEC claims in the title of this chapter that....

"These requirements were developed with a reasonably practical eye. In asmall building or service, disaggregation is not required at all. The minimumthreshold of 50-kVA service means that almost all projects less than 5,000 sf​

will not be required to comply."
You gotta remember these guys start in fantasyland, so everything is reasonable

I guess that none of us install 200 amp 3ph 120/208 in building less than 5000 sqft. Can you say fast food joint.
Remember it is the SERVICE. A lot of our retail is around 1200amp service at 480V then SUB metered down to 200 amps each. The dissagregation at that level (1200 amps) is extensive. Each suite would have separate panels for different loads. The CEC need to clarify what they mean by the word SERVICE. I think they mean METERED.
You folks need to read this stuff

I'm wishing I hadn't.

 

[Sierrasparky]

If the space is seperate metered then the rules go by the size of each meter.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Has anyone actually read this new 2014 title 24 energy standard?

All I can say is wow.

(snip)

You folks need to read this stuff

that's what i said back at the start of this thread.... :happyyes:

it's really not something you can just skim thru the
cliff notes on.... once you start trying to wrap your
head around this, it's a big deal, if you are trying
to make a living doing electrical work.

substituting light fixtures without engineering approval
doesn't fly.

if ALL the components of the system aren't in the approved
devices listing, it doesn't fly.

certification of the system design parameters is done with
a light meter and a wattmeter. systems that don't meet
the specifications, irregardless of the reason, will be changed
until they do.

lithonia's photometric add in for autocad is all well and good,
but it will be verified with an amprobe and a light meter before
the job is done.

it's not a rubber stamp thing. auditing will be done. if you rubber
stamp it, and get caught, your shiny -AT cert is gone, and most
likely the -AT cert of your employer.

it's not gonna be cheap, either. aside from the hardware cost
increases, this process is more like a LEED commissioning than
anything else... so, take what the cost of a LEED commissioning
is, and there you are.... add to the fact that there are enough
LEED AP's out there for value pricing, and with this, well, it's a
pretty short list of suppliers at this point, and probably won't be
a ton of them for a while. it's not all the building systems and
total scope that a LEED cert entails, but it's sure not gonna be
a "throw $500 on the bid sheet for that cert thingie...."

 

[Sierrasparky]

The energy commision has certainly overreached this time.
They are even dictating Voltage drop.

This is got to go!

We all know it won't

 

[JDBrown]

My personal favorite so far is the requirement for half of the receptacles in commercial construction to be controlled by a time clock (it's something like that -- I don't have the requirements in front of me). I have a feeling we're going to be seeing a lot of designs that just include twice as many receptacles as before, and a whole lot of time clock controlled receptacles are going to end up being ignored or marked DO NOT USE by people who don't want to risk their computer suddenly losing power when they decide to work late.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I recently read through the AT certification comment prior to law. It read like a union hall mandatory support. If you did not support it you were ostrasized. Each comment letter was the same a form letter. I saw no opposition letters. I really blew it this time by not putting my thoughts in writing. I don't think I would have had the support though.

 

[sandsnow]

If the space is seperate metered then the rules go by the size of each meter.

The text says "service meter" and the table just says "service"
The compliance manual doesn't really clarify it.
Still trying to wrap my head around this and everything else.

 

[sandsnow]

My personal favorite so far is the requirement for half of the receptacles in commercial construction to be controlled by a time clock (it's something like that -- I don't have the requirements in front of me). I have a feeling we're going to be seeing a lot of designs that just include twice as many receptacles as before, and a whole lot of time clock controlled receptacles are going to end up being ignored or marked DO NOT USE by people who don't want to risk their computer suddenly losing power when they decide to work late.

Controlled receptacles depend on user interface for success.
Your right. Even though the controlled receptacle is intended for a desk lamp and monitor, people will ignore.
Time clock is only one option. Occupancy sensors is another.
It gets better. Provisions shall be made for partition furniture whether installed or future.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Controlled receptacles depend on user interface for success.
Your right. Even though the controlled receptacle is intended for a desk lamp and monitor, people will ignore.
Time clock is only one option. Occupancy sensors is another.
It gets better. Provisions shall be made for partition furniture whether installed or future.

there is gonna be a lot of innovation and adaptation in the next couple years, i think...

for example, there is a device for hotels that has a magnetic switch on the door, wireless,
going to a smoke detector / occupancy sensor on the ceiling, also wireless, that controls
a switched receptacle that controls the wall mounted A/C in a hotel room.

housekeeping leaves the A/C set to blow cold on high, when they leave the room.
with the motion sensor seeing nothing, the A/C shuts off after 8 minutes, and the
sensor in the ceiling has a T stat built into it to keep the room at 78 with A/C.

when you walk into the room, the door sensor operates, and the A/C comes on, running
full boat. while you are in the room, the A/C has power. after you leave, it goes off.

supposedly drops the electric consumption of the facility by 60% or more.

there's gonna be a lot of stuff happening like this, i suspect.

 

[Sierrasparky]

there is gonna be a lot of innovation and adaptation in the next couple years, i think...

for example, there is a device for hotels that has a magnetic switch on the door, wireless,
going to a smoke detector / occupancy sensor on the ceiling, also wireless, that controls
a switched receptacle that controls the wall mounted A/C in a hotel room.

housekeeping leaves the A/C set to blow cold on high, when they leave the room.
with the motion sensor seeing nothing, the A/C shuts off after 8 minutes, and the
sensor in the ceiling has a T stat built into it to keep the room at 78 with A/C.

when you walk into the room, the door sensor operates, and the A/C comes on, running
full boat. while you are in the room, the A/C has power. after you leave, it goes off.

supposedly drops the electric consumption of the facility by 60% or more.

there's gonna be a lot of stuff happening like this, i suspect.

So frikin what! The hotel owner should install this stuff on his own. It should no be the place of a mandate.
As I said before What next Smog check on the Hotel. Shut it down because the hotel uses too much energy.

 

[iwire]

there is gonna be a lot of innovation and adaptation in the next couple years, i think...

for example, there is a device for hotels that has a magnetic switch on the door, wireless,
going to a smoke detector / occupancy sensor on the ceiling, also wireless, that controls
a switched receptacle that controls the wall mounted A/C in a hotel room.

That kind of thing is already being installed in many locations.

I bid a job for a hotel with Mitsubishi split systems and they had many extra features to monitor the room and report the info to the front desk.

Motion sensors, temp sensors etc. So the front desk would always know if someone was in the room or not. Along with controlling the temps.