new title 24 requirements effective 01-01-14 in calif.......

[Fulthrotl]

That kind of thing is already being installed in many locations.

I bid a job for a hotel with Mitsubishi split systems and they had many extra features to monitor the room and report the info to the front desk.

Motion sensors, temp sensors etc. So the front desk would always know if someone was in the room or not. Along with controlling the temps.

exactly.. i was just using that particular device as an example, it is NOT a requirement of calctp whatsoever.
calctp is only lighting. it is not a requirement of title 24 either, it is simply a simple idea for cutting the electric
bill in half.

class tonight, three problems fiddling with hardware, and out of there after three hours.
thursday, test night. we shall see if when they poured all this stuff in my ear,
if any of it stuck.

 

[Sierrasparky]

exactly.. i was just using that particular device as an example, it is NOT a requirement of calctp whatsoever.
calctp is only lighting. it is not a requirement of title 24 either, it is simply a simple idea for cutting the electric
bill in half.

class tonight, three problems fiddling with hardware, and out of there after three hours.
thursday, test night. we shall see if when they poured all this stuff in my ear,
if any of it stuck.

you are mistaken this type of control is required in a hotel next year if new or under certain remodel cituations.

 

[Ragin Cajun]

No wonder commiefornia is in trouble! Tipping point is getting very close.

RC

 

[Sierrasparky]

You're tellin me.
I can just see the mass exedus of CA. like in the 80's
Then you will see the signs on the road entering a new State "don't Californicate our state"

 

[GoldDigger]

You're tellin me.
I can just see the mass exedus of CA. like in the 80's
Then you will see the signs on the road entering a new State "don't Californicate our state"

They actually sell bumper stickers with that text in Oregon.
Used in conjunction with the signs at the border: "Welcome to Oregon. Now go home."

 

[Fulthrotl]

They actually sell bumper stickers with that text in Oregon.
Used in conjunction with the signs at the border: "Welcome to Oregon. Now go home."

yep. applied to cars with brand new oregon plates... the month before, they were californicators.

"quick bill, we are across the state line.... dynamite the bridge!" :happyyes::happyyes:

 

[texie]

No wonder commiefornia is in trouble! Tipping point is getting very close.

RC

Well, of course you are correct. I was going to mention the same thing earlier on in this tread but thought better of it due to the rules. I would love to elaborate on this, but I recognize this is allowed here, so I will leave it at that.

 

[Sierrasparky]

yep. applied to cars with brand new oregon plates... the month before, they were californicators.

"quick bill, we are across the state line.... dynamite the bridge!" :happyyes::happyyes:

No wonder commiefornia is in trouble! Tipping point is getting very close.

RC

Well, of course you are correct. I was going to mention the same thing earlier on in this tread but thought better of it due to the rules. I would love to elaborate on this, but I recognize this is allowed here, so I will leave it at that.

I learned something very interesting about this whole certification thing.
It is my understanding that any company that becomes a AT company and certifies a project will be subject to a audit by the people who issue your license for AT technician. This audit can be a year later well after you leave the job. You agree to pay a Audit fee even if you pass the Audit. The fee appears to be serveral hundred dollars. This fee is not scaleable due to the cost of construction as my understanding.

This is Bull crap!!! Who is going to pay that? Not me. But I was told the bill comes to me not the owner. If you fail then you might pay unitil you pass. :rant:

 

[GoldDigger]

This is Bull crap!!! Who is going to pay that? Not me. But I was told the bill comes to me not the owner. If you fail then you might pay unitil you pass. :rant:

I can just see submitting a change order request from an unaudited certification to an audited certification a year after the job is complete. Including a billing for the time spent talking to the auditor.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I can just see submitting a change order request from an unaudited certification to an audited certification a year after the job is complete. Including a billing for the time spent talking to the auditor.

well, let's see how this shakes out. firstly, unless one of the ten approved CALCTP-AT
contractors is lurking here.... (i suspect iwire) we are all just speculating on this.

depending on when i can get scheduled for the 8 hour CALCTP-AT contractor
course, i'll let you know what shakes with that, after i get that behind me, and
know exactly what i have signed.

i took the technician test this evening, and passed.
minimum passing score is 75%. there are 60 questions, you can miss 15 of them.
i missed 8. took an hour and 45 minutes. my score was typical, i think.

the course is open book. you can use your notes, the workbook, etc.
the class lasts 4 hours, so you have almost the entire class to complete the work.
it's a pain. the course materials are about 300 pages, so if you don't have good
flags on the pertinent pages, you are well and duly screwed.

with the certification, i can now certify a job, but only in the employ of an -AT
contractor. so my little one man band is gonna get the certification, and while
i might not be the smallest -AT contractor, i'll be tied for the title, that's for sure.

the notes, flags, and course work are gonna be coming in handy. nobody who has
been thru this can do the first one out of the box, without a crib sheet.

in my idle moments, i'm gonna start building a package of all the necessary forms,
and checklists of stuff, 'cause documentation is what this whole thing is all about.

now all we need is an app, so we can do the whole thing on an iphone.




did i say that out loud?

 

[Sierrasparky]

IWIRE is he not on the far EAST coast

 

[Fulthrotl]

IWIRE is he not on the far EAST coast

well, yeah, but lets not let facts get in the way here......

 

[sandsnow]

I learned something very interesting about this whole certification thing.
It is my understanding that any company that becomes a AT company and certifies a project will be subject to a audit by the people who issue your license for AT technician. This audit can be a year later well after you leave the job. You agree to pay a Audit fee even if you pass the Audit. The fee appears to be serveral hundred dollars. This fee is not scaleable due to the cost of construction as my understanding.

This is Bull crap!!! Who is going to pay that? Not me. But I was told the bill comes to me not the owner. If you fail then you might pay unitil you pass. :rant:

What is your source?
I knew about the checking up thing (audit), but have not investigated in detail.

 

[sandsnow]

well, let's see how this shakes out. firstly, unless one of the ten approved CALCTP-AT
contractors is lurking here.... (i suspect iwire) we are all just speculating on this.

depending on when i can get scheduled for the 8 hour CALCTP-AT contractor
course, i'll let you know what shakes with that, after i get that behind me, and
know exactly what i have signed.

i took the technician test this evening, and passed.
minimum passing score is 75%. there are 60 questions, you can miss 15 of them.
i missed 8. took an hour and 45 minutes. my score was typical, i think.

the course is open book. you can use your notes, the workbook, etc.
the class lasts 4 hours, so you have almost the entire class to complete the work.
it's a pain. the course materials are about 300 pages, so if you don't have good
flags on the pertinent pages, you are well and duly screwed.

with the certification, i can now certify a job, but only in the employ of an -AT
contractor. so my little one man band is gonna get the certification, and while
i might not be the smallest -AT contractor, i'll be tied for the title, that's for sure.

the notes, flags, and course work are gonna be coming in handy. nobody who has
been thru this can do the first one out of the box, without a crib sheet.

in my idle moments, i'm gonna start building a package of all the necessary forms,
and checklists of stuff, 'cause documentation is what this whole thing is all about.

now all we need is an app, so we can do the whole thing on an iphone.




did i say that out loud?

First - Congratulations.
Second, I have SO many questions. I will PM you later.

 

[Fulthrotl]

just an FYI, there are currently 121 -AT techs registered,
with another two dozen or so added last night.... and there
are about 30 facilities statewide training them... soo.....
looks like that 300 by new years is pretty doable.
one more class at each facility should do it.

 

[Sierrasparky]

What is your source?
I knew about the checking up thing (audit), but have not investigated in detail.

I was looking into getting certified and contacted the folks at CALTCP because it was very confusing to me. I wrote to mailto:mouellette@icfi.com Mark called me and I spoke to him at great legnth. He informed me that if I wish to certify my own projects I will be subject to the Terms of there organization if I get cerified by them. This means that All projects certified by either me or another certified employer/Technician will be subject to random Audit. The CALTCP will charge for this it will cost the EC several hundred dollars. The audit is only random selected small sample of projects ( so they claim) . The Audit will be many months after the Tech has left the site and the owner takes over.


I don't know about you but I certainly would not claim in the certificates that I installed motion sensors and such and then never installed them, so I would never be concerned about failing because of that. However we need to realistic here ,How many times have you left a project and the owner changed something!. Me many a time. How many times have you seen lighting controls damaged from misuse motion sensors that look like someone gouged the face. How can I be responsible for this after I leave. Look, If I fail the install then I was not taught properly and that is the problem of the Certification people. If I am going through the motions of taking all these classes I better know what is correct when I graduate. So I don't think that will be the issue for me.

What is at issue is well after you finish you may have to pay to have someone Audit you. PAY real Money. Do any of you think that you will be able to collect this from the owner months after you completed the job. DO you think a clause in the contract with the owner is going to get you paid. Do you think you can lein the property NO YOU CAN'T once the project is complete.


This is one big money grab from a company that is a leach on our society. Where is the oversight and checks and ballances. You dont comply with their outrageous rules and they will revoke your certification.

These folks need to be stopped before they get too heavily intrenched!!!!!!:rant:

 

[JDBrown]

These folks need to be stopped before they get too heavily intrenched!!!!!!:rant:

I'm all for that, but HOW? Does anybody have any real suggestions for how we can actually reverse any of this?

 

[Fulthrotl]

I'm all for that, but HOW? Does anybody have any real suggestions for how we can actually reverse any of this?

you can't. it's a law. judges can affect laws. court cases can affect laws.

now, this whole thing is forming up, and there is going to be some fluttering
before it's all said and done. let's not cry before we are hit, ok?

now, i don't know how you guys bid stuff, but when i bid stuff, i look at
the costs i incur building it, and the labor building it, and the profit
i want to make on top of that, and i end up with a number.

now, if you don't have the certification, you need to hire someone who
does to bless your work. that costs money. put another line on the bid,
and get a price for it. don't forget to add some profit for your time and
trouble.

so, you get the job, and issue a PO to the company providing your cert.
you do the work, they do the work, you get paid, you pay them, and
we all smile and walk on to the next one.

if there is an audit, it's between the regulatory agency, and their
certified person, and his employer.

it's none of your business. you hired a service. you are done.

this is a watchdog agency. it doesn't have the right to revoke a certificate
of occupancy once it's been issued.

so, see who does certs in your area, and give them a call.

i spent half an hour this morning, on the phone to a director of a private
school, regarding this matter. he knows more about this than most everyone
i've talked to.

yes, there are audits.
yes, there are fees. more than we have discussed here so far.
yes, as an -AT contractor, you will pay them.

will you have to absorb them in your business?
only if you are stupid. do you buy material and put it in without
getting paid for it?

fees are the material that you will be installing, either for yourself,
or as a service to others.

the only people who will get screwed here are contractors who don't
put the costs of this work into their bids.

just like missing six 2" conduits in the slab.
bummer, dude. - 4 points.

 

[JDBrown]

...
the only people who will get screwed here are contractors who don't
put the costs of this work into their bids.
...

... and the customers who ultimately end up paying for all of this.

As an Engineer, will any of this commissioning/testing/auditing directly affect me? Or will things be pretty much the same on the design side of things, just with more stringent rules?

 

[Sierrasparky]

you can't. it's a law. judges can affect laws. court cases can affect laws.

now, this whole thing is forming up, and there is going to be some fluttering
before it's all said and done. let's not cry before we are hit, ok?

Yes it is the law but the policy is being made right now as we speak. If we put up a stink with some reasonable solutions we will get our way. Once the enforcement policy is made it will probably be all over.

now, i don't know how you guys bid stuff, but when i bid stuff, i look at
the costs i incur building it, and the labor building it, and the profit
i want to make on top of that, and i end up with a number.

Yea so what. Try to build in these charges when many don't even do the right thing now.

now, if you don't have the certification, you need to hire someone who
does to bless your work. that costs money. put another line on the bid,
and get a price for it. don't forget to add some profit for your time and
trouble.

so, you get the job, and issue a PO to the company providing your cert.
you do the work, they do the work, you get paid, you pay them, and
we all smile and walk on to the next one.

if there is an audit, it's between the regulatory agency, and their
certified person, and his employer.

it's none of your business. you hired a service. you are done.

Yeah keep thinking it's that simple. The Audit is almost a year later and the owner disabled or removed some features or changed the programming. Now I would gather the Auditor cannot fix the problem as they are only there to test. So tell me how you gonna collect that money.Like all of you out there We have never had customers that did not pay...... Yea....... I have contractors and Engineer buddies all over the country whom Prior to the recent depression or even 911 never got screwed by a customer. Well it aint that way now. One by one they tell me of the wowes.
this is a watchdog agency. it doesn't have the right to revoke a certificate
of occupancy once it's been issued.
That is true, However there are going to be some other consequences.

so, see who does certs in your area, and give them a call.

i spent half an hour this morning, on the phone to a director of a private
school, regarding this matter. he knows more about this than most everyone
i've talked to.

yes, there are audits.
yes, there are fees. more than we have discussed here so far.
yes, as an -AT contractor, you will pay them.

will you have to absorb them in your business?
only if you are stupid. do you buy material and put it in without
getting paid for it?

fees are the material that you will be installing, either for yourself,
or as a service to others.

the only people who will get screwed here are contractors who don't
put the costs of this work into their bids.

just like missing six 2" conduits in the slab.
bummer, dude. - 4 points.

... and the customers who ultimately end up paying for all of this.

As an Engineer, will any of this commissioning/testing/auditing directly affect me? Or will things be pretty much the same on the design side of things, just with more stringent rules?

With all that said What independant AT tech that one hires is going to be allowed back into a building that the owner did not contract with to perform said audit.
I am sorry an Audit other than Vouluntary is out of the question once the Job passes inspection and CO is granted. They want to show up when the project is going through the testing Fine as long as the costs are coverd. Six months later or a year
GET LOST!!!!

I have talk to many a contractor and they are not on board with this.