new title 24 requirements effective 01-01-14 in calif.......

sandsnow

Senior Member
CALCTP is NOT a goverment agency. They spout rules and such as though they are.

The rules for certification and being certified are in section (sorry don't have it in front of me). Once certification has been issued then I think it would have to be official State action to revoke. It's like Prometric revoking you're electrician certification.

That said, let's all read the rules in the Standards.

I think sierrasparky's concerns are justified, even though as working for an AHJ have to be impartial.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
CALCTP is NOT a goverment agency. They spout rules and such as though they are.

The rules for certification and being certified are in section (sorry don't have it in front of me). Once certification has been issued then I think it would have to be official State action to revoke. It's like Prometric revoking you're electrician certification.

That said, let's all read the rules in the Standards.

I think sierrasparky's concerns are justified, even though as working for an AHJ have to be impartial.
You are correct, However the CEC is currently accepting CALCTP's policy and Quality Assurance program. Once approve althogh not really Law it has some clout. Don't go by their rules and your certification that is issued through them is gets revoked. CALCTP has all the power it needs. Trust me.
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
... and the customers who ultimately end up paying for all of this.

As an Engineer, will any of this commissioning/testing/auditing directly affect me? Or will things be pretty much the same on the design side of things, just with more stringent rules?
i'd make sure my errors and omissions insurance is in place.... i'd say
that the big downside to you is if you design something that doesn't comply,
and it goes thru plan check, gets put in, and gets shot down at final...

cost of rework, and liquidated damages is going to go somewhere.

i'm still in the learning how it'll work phase.... i'll post more after i
write checks and get the contractor -AT cert... i figure the cost on
that'll be about $1k.

my total out of pocket costs to get to this point have been $136.50.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
i'd make sure my errors and omissions insurance is in place.... i'd say
that the big downside to you is if you design something that doesn't comply,
and it goes thru plan check, gets put in, and gets shot down at final...

cost of rework, and liquidated damages is going to go somewhere.

i'm still in the learning how it'll work phase.... i'll post more after i
write checks and get the contractor -AT cert... i figure the cost on
that'll be about $1k.

my total out of pocket costs to get to this point have been $136.50.
Errors and omissions- sure, As I said earlier If I take the class and pass I should know what works and does not. Anything that does not pass muster on the plans I will be getting clarification prior to build. I will intend to do this stuff correctly the first time around.

As far as the cost of all this. I seriously doubt I will get any discounts as I am not Union or belong to such a similar organization. I see the cost of roughly 2500 Min. Then probably recertification in subsequent years.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
Audit

Audit

Quality Assurance and Accountability.
The ATTCP shall describe in their application to the
Energy Commission how their certification business practices include quality assurance,
independent oversight and accountability measures, such as, independent oversight of the
certification processes and procedures, visits to building sites where certified technicians are
completing acceptance tests, certification process evaluations, building department surveys to
determine acceptance testing effectiveness, and expert review of the training curricula developed
for Building Energy Efficiency Standards, Section 130.4. Independent oversight may be
demonstrated by accreditation under the ISO/IEC 17024 standard.



I see nothing about audit after the fact. I do see independent oversight. I wonder who that will be?
I didn't bother to look up the ISO/IEC standard.

They are also supposed to notify the building departments and the public about a complaint procedure. Nothing yet on that. I figured they would have said something at the meeting I went to. I don't know why the text went all screwy below.





Complaint Procedures.



The ATTCPs shall describe in their applications to the Energy






Commission
procedures for accepting and addressing complaints regarding the performance of any


certified acceptance test technician or employer, and explain how building departments and the
public will be notified of these procedures.




 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Quality Assurance and Accountability.
The ATTCP shall describe in their application to the
Energy Commission how their certification business practices include quality assurance,
independent oversight and accountability measures, such as, independent oversight of the
certification processes and procedures, visits to building sites where certified technicians are
completing acceptance tests, certification process evaluations, building department surveys to
determine acceptance testing effectiveness, and expert review of the training curricula developed
for Building Energy Efficiency Standards, Section 130.4. Independent oversight may be
demonstrated by accreditation under the ISO/IEC 17024 standard.



I see nothing about audit after the fact. I do see independent oversight. I wonder who that will be?
I didn't bother to look up the ISO/IEC standard.

They are also supposed to notify the building departments and the public about a complaint procedure. Nothing yet on that. I figured they would have said something at the meeting I went to. I don't know why the text went all screwy below.





Complaint Procedures.



The ATTCPs shall describe in their applications to the Energy






Commission
procedures for accepting and addressing complaints regarding the performance of any


certified acceptance test technician or employer, and explain how building departments and the
public will be notified of these procedures.




You are correct. I read through all that last night. That is why I say that the CEC is currently making policy based on the submission by the CALTCP. Quite frankly the CEC does not care how QA is done. They are willing to allow the audit I discussed . If we rattle things up a bit we may get something more reasonable or pallatable.
 
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Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I hear the CA Energy Comm. may delay the implementation of the new code from Jan 1 to July. :slaphead:

Sounds like another Obamma Care rollout
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
I hear the CA Energy Comm. may delay the implementation of the new code from Jan 1 to July. :slaphead:

Sounds like another Obamma Care rollout
well, it remains to be seen.... unless something changes, when these conditions are met:

Jan. 01, 2014
300 CALCTP-AT technicians are certified

the show is on. current count of technicians is 201, but they are posting more as we speak,
and i suspect there are quite a lot in the pipeline... it's taking two weeks for them to process
the tests and post the licenses.

 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
At Tech is only one issue. The at contractor is the other problem. Who is going to be authorized to certify them. Call to may not be approved . Doubtful but they have not been approved yet and neither has the software for modeling been..
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
At Tech is only one issue. The at contractor is the other problem. Who is going to be authorized to certify them. Call to may not be approved . Doubtful but they have not been approved yet and neither has the software for modeling been..
well, as i understand it, an -AT can only work for an -AT certified contractor,
so you can't just hire an -AT tech to do your certification.

so, it seems that the only people able to provide the certification service
at this time, are those -AT contractors with one or more -AT technicians
in their employ.

at this time, there are 20 such firms in california, but i know that there
were quite a number of contractors attending the one day certification classes,
so i suspect that will change as quickly as the database can be updated.

yesterday, i went to give a quote for some lighting in newport beach,
and explained that i wasn't able to schedule them, as there are only seven
days in a week, and they are all booked, and referred them to a friend,
and suggested strongly that they permit and do this work before the first
of the year, and why.... they have a commercial store front, and want do
do a dozen lights in the back of the shop, and leave the front until later.
the front is over 10,000 sq ft, with window glass, so it won't be exempt
from the daylight harvesting, etc.

i don't think they got it.... they had their plan, and were sticking to it.
they are gonna be really crabby when they get to phase two sometime
next year.

there probably is going to be some opportunity to make some money in
the short time until everyone gets certified, etc.... the irony is that i'm
not even going to be thinking about doing anything with this until next
autumn.

being busy is a blessing.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Fulthrotl,
I don't think you get it. No one will have an advantage as the Law will be held off till July. So no need for Certification till then. 6 months to get things in order.

As to the AT contractor the AT contractor still has to hang his cerification with a certification company. There is only one right now and it is only temp and not fully approved as of last week my sources tell me. So just because you took the class and passed the test and Caltcp has claimed you as certified means nothing at present.
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
Fulthrotl,
I don't think you get it. No one will have an advantage as the Law will be held off till July. So no need for Certification till then. 6 months to get things in order.

As to the AT contractor the AT contractor still has to hang his cerification with a certification company. There is only one right now and it is only temp and not fully approved as of last week my sources tell me. So just because you took the class and passed the test and Caltcp has claimed you as certified means nothing at present.

i guess you are right... i just don't get it.
thanks for clearing that up for me.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
Fulthrotl,
I don't think you get it. No one will have an advantage as the Law will be held off till July. So no need for Certification till then. 6 months to get things in order.

As to the AT contractor the AT contractor still has to hang his cerification with a certification company. There is only one right now and it is only temp and not fully approved as of last week my sources tell me. So just because you took the class and passed the test and Caltcp has claimed you as certified means nothing at present.
As I understand:

CALCTP will certify techs and employers. Section 10-103-A covers this. Am I reading that wrong?

CALCTP has an interim approval as a provider. Not much doubt it will get permanent status.

CEC will probably delay effective date

So that just means a longer grace period to get certified.

Certification is not going away.

So might as well get certified now.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
As I understand:

CALCTP will certify techs and employers. Section 10-103-A covers this. Am I reading that wrong?

Yes, However the CEC as of recently have not fully authorized the CALCTP program. The QA portion and Policy. I have sent in an objection.
CALCTP has an interim approval as a provider. Not much doubt it will get permanent status.'

yes

CEC will probably delay effective date

yes

So that just means a longer grace period to get certified.

The law and code enforcement will probably be delayed also

Certification is not going away.

Probably not, well see.

So might as well get certified now.
Sure , by the time of implementation it will not be as exclusive.

We will know on the 12th.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Well ,
Looks like the entire 2013 energy code has been postponed 6 months. So no exclusivity at this time. Any AT techs or Contractors have nothing to do. :eek:hmy:
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
Well ,
Looks like the entire 2013 energy code has been postponed 6 months. So no exclusivity at this time. Any AT techs or Contractors have nothing to do. :eek:hmy:
you said you'd know on the 12th.... it's the 11th.... that IS efficient.....

please let the state of calif. know... they didn't get the memo yet...


 
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Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
Trust Me ..
I know.
The CEC met this morning, It was a 4-1 vote to delay.

so, there it is, in living color.

http://www.energycode.com/?p=1492

[h=2]2013 Title-24 Energy Code delayed until July 1, 2014[/h]
.
.
Dec 11, 2013
.
The California Energy Commission voted this morning to delay implementation of the 2013 Title-24 Building Efficiency Standards until July 1, 2014 due to ?unanticipated delays? in completing the compliance software. No other changes to the code are planned
 
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