new title 24 requirements effective 01-01-14 in calif.......

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sandsnow

Senior Member
but the approved drawings were not followed, so it doesn't make any difference from your
point of view what wasn't followed, just that it wasn't.... yes? a 100 amp subpanel being
substituted for a 200 amp panel shown on the prints would have the same effect as the
lighting not being compliant?

so this job didn't make it to final inspection, did it? i'm just baffled that something this significant
got left out....

Contractor ignored T24 sheets. Photosensors were called for in compliance docs. Plans were lacking photosensors on lighting sheet. Plan checker didn't catch it. Final hasn't happened yet. Rough signed off by combo inspector with no rough in for photosensor. Kind of a perfect storm
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Contractor ignored T24 sheets. Photosensors were called for in compliance docs. Plans were lacking photosensors on lighting sheet. Plan checker didn't catch it. Final hasn't happened yet. Rough signed off by combo inspector with no rough in for photosensor. Kind of a perfect storm

eww. enough poo to get some on everyone.
but then, a little poo goes a long way.

we all have our moments.... like pouring a housekeeping pad,
that turned out beautifully, except for being a bit small for the gear.
nothing that dowling, some forms and a yard of concrete wouldn't fix.

i added a two shovelfuls of humility to the concrete so it'd set up faster.
there hasn't been that much humility near me in a while. i was due.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~

i'm giggling as well.... got another call from a general contractor,
about -AT certification... it seems, based on what is unfolding
with this, that i've got three GC's who do a lot of retail outlets...
strip mall stuff.... and they seem happy with my services, and
are calling back with more work.....

i explained to the fellow who called today that i'm not doing
preliminary notices, purchase orders, contracts or anything
like that.... i'll do the certification, and if i don't get paid, i
won't do any more of them for him.

and if he flushes me down the toilet for a certification fee,
then he can deal with one of the 400 other people who can
give him the certification... and none of them are going to
come near my price. he agreed.

this is gonna get interesting......
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
it gets more interesting.....
got a request from an electrical engineer to consult on lighting,
so that when i do the -AT certification, there are no hairballs....

but... but... i'm just the sparky. doesn't matter, they say. they want the
guy who is gonna sign it off looking at the design before it goes
to plan check. folks are a bit twitchy about this stuff. nobody
want's to have to change this stuff once it's in.

and the pricing on this stuff i'm told, doubles the lighting portion of
the job in a lot of cases. everyone is using LED troffers now, and
some wattstopper devices simply aren't available for two months.
the contractor i was speaking with today did substitutions to wattstopper
products, as others in the marketplace simply aren't available,
except at huge markups.

suddenly approved equipment is priced like it's made out of unobtanium.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
anybody with a current and valid CALCTP-AT
certification, who needs a CALCTP contractor to work
under, i have more work in this area than i have any
reasonable expectation of being able to do by myself.

send me a PM if interested in discussing it.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
So this is Title 24 , this country is truly done .

I have a Question as to .... What is or entails in a $200 Desk Review ?
Don

there is a 20% audit mandated by the CEC.
half paperwork review, half onsite review.
three year statute of limitations.

so, out of ten jobs, statistically, you will incur $600 in audit costs.
one paperwork review, one field audit. budget accordingly.

me, i put $400 on every certification, and put that $400 in a impound account
for three years. if they chose to audit 100% of my jobs with a field audit, the
money is sitting there to pay for it. if not, it's a pretty good savings plan.
tax is paid on it, and it's unencumbered. if i have to pay it out, it's a hell of
a good write off.

i told one sparkie at the wholesale house that i had the cert, and he might
want to hang on to my card for when he needed the certification. he needed
one job done, and his general contractor got my number.

that was all it took. there is no way i can possibly do all the work that is
available, but i'm doing my level best to try. a week ago tuesday, the phone
rang from 8 am on, and i downloaded and printed prints until 6 pm.
and i have a fast plotter.

it's like being the ugliest girl at the dance, and at the same time, being the
only girl at the dance. i figure it'll take almost a year for the rest of the girls
to show up and spoil the fun.

"shut up and dance" seems to be the operative phrase at the moment.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
So in addition to adding a large amount of extra cost to the actual installation, T24 is a paperwork and buearacratic nightmare as well.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
So in addition to adding a large amount of extra cost to the actual installation, T24 is a paperwork and buearacratic nightmare as well.

not at this point. that comes later, most likely for
the folks who aren't complying voluntarily. not every
building inspector in calif. is going to demand the paperwork
before issuing a final. some will, some won't.

and the uniform reaction is usually....
HOORAY! we dodged a bullet. SCREW THOSE GUYS!
we 'don need no stinking cert!

the hook will most likely be set sometime in the future,
when the permit numbers issued are matched against
the certifications recorded on the database, and all the
folks with the unblessed permits are sent a form letter
to please certify their jobs.

a year has gone by, everyone's been paid, retentions are
released, and now, you get to pay for the certification out
of your own pocket, or have your C-10 suspended. it'd be
effortless for the CEC to port all the noncomplying contractors
straight to the CSLB for a spanking. Just like not paying your
workers comp premium will get your license suspended promptly.

the sucker punch won't come from the city, it'll be mandated
by the CEC, and administered by the folks in charge of the
program. one person doing filtering in excel can mail merge
it in a day or so.

there is a three year statute on this. will they do it?
my thought is, they will. it's easily accomplished. if you
take care of it during the construction, you have a mechanism
for recovering the costs as an extra.

a year and a quarter from now? load up your money gun.
you are on your own. what'll it cost? depends on the size
of the job. minimum charge would START at about $2,500.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
been almost two years since i started this thread.....

thought it had died a slow and obscure death.

some of the information has been rendered outdated by changes,
however, we are now coming up on title 24:2016.
the bar will be raised higher, and it'll be the same in a totally
unique way, i'm sure.

maybe one of the moderators can park this thread. it's lived long
enough.
 
there is a 20% audit mandated by the CEC.
half paperwork review, half onsite review.
three year statute of limitations.

so, out of ten jobs, statistically, you will incur $600 in audit costs.
one paperwork review, one field audit. budget accordingly.

me, i put $400 on every certification, and put that $400 in a impound account
for three years. if they chose to audit 100% of my jobs with a field audit, the
money is sitting there to pay for it. if not, it's a pretty good savings plan.
tax is paid on it, and it's unencumbered. if i have to pay it out, it's a hell of
a good write off.

i told one sparkie at the wholesale house that i had the cert, and he might
want to hang on to my card for when he needed the certification. he needed
one job done, and his general contractor got my number.

that was all it took. there is no way i can possibly do all the work that is
available, but i'm doing my level best to try. a week ago tuesday, the phone
rang from 8 am on, and i downloaded and printed prints until 6 pm.
and i have a fast plotter.

it's like being the ugliest girl at the dance, and at the same time, being the
only girl at the dance. i figure it'll take almost a year for the rest of the girls
to show up and spoil the fun.

"shut up and dance" seems to be the operative phrase at the moment.

not at this point. that comes later, most likely for
the folks who aren't complying voluntarily. not every
building inspector in calif. is going to demand the paperwork
before issuing a final. some will, some won't.

and the uniform reaction is usually....
HOORAY! we dodged a bullet. SCREW THOSE GUYS!
we 'don need no stinking cert!

the hook will most likely be set sometime in the future,
when the permit numbers issued are matched against
the certifications recorded on the database, and all the
folks with the unblessed permits are sent a form letter
to please certify their jobs.

a year has gone by, everyone's been paid, retentions are
released, and now, you get to pay for the certification out
of your own pocket, or have your C-10 suspended. it'd be
effortless for the CEC to port all the noncomplying contractors
straight to the CSLB for a spanking. Just like not paying your
workers comp premium will get your license suspended promptly.

the sucker punch won't come from the city, it'll be mandated
by the CEC, and administered by the folks in charge of the
program. one person doing filtering in excel can mail merge
it in a day or so.

there is a three year statute on this. will they do it?
my thought is, they will. it's easily accomplished. if you
take care of it during the construction, you have a mechanism
for recovering the costs as an extra.

a year and a quarter from now? load up your money gun.
you are on your own. what'll it cost? depends on the size
of the job. minimum charge would START at about $2,500.

In the class I took it was told that not only was the acceptance testing going to be audited but also local jurisdictions will also be audited once the database was set up. Those audit reports were then to be filed with the CEC.

Kind of a no brainer as all projects need to be registered now using only the AT providers electronic forms. No more use of forms printed from the CEC website. Very difficult to Bs compliance.

Our industry did it to ourselves.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
In the class I took it was told that not only was the acceptance testing going to be audited but also local jurisdictions will also be audited once the database was set up. Those audit reports were then to be filed with the CEC.

Kind of a no brainer as all projects need to be registered now using only the AT providers electronic forms. No more use of forms printed from the CEC website. Very difficult to Bs compliance.

Our industry did it to ourselves.

The auditing of the local jurisdictions will be a circus, especially the smaller ones. Building depths typically don't like anyone telling them what to do. Holding them accountable will be a good thing, but there will be a pushback.

Yes the industry did it to themselves and I fault contractors and building depths equally. No one took self certification equally.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I keep saying, that if everyone had done what they were supposed to do 10 years ago, we probably wouldn't be in this mess.

No one took it serious and now the state is making it harder and more expensive to comply. I'm guessing that they made it this hard because if they only got 50% compliance, they would be meeting their goals on energy savings.

The really bad thing about this cycle, is that no one understands most of it. I just got an email today from a company that said they couldn't comply with the controlled receptacle requirement because their computers cannot be shut down. I said oh sorry about that, you still have to comply, figure it out.
 
I keep saying, that if everyone had done what they were supposed to do 10 years ago, we probably wouldn't be in this mess.

No one took it serious and now the state is making it harder and more expensive to comply. I'm guessing that they made it this hard because if they only got 50% compliance, they would be meeting their goals on energy savings.

The really bad thing about this cycle, is that no one understands most of it. I just got an email today from a company that said they couldn't comply with the controlled receptacle requirement because their computers cannot be shut down. I said oh sorry about that, you still have to comply, figure it out.

The controlled outlets, don't they just need to place the computer in the other than controlled outlets.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
Although requirement is clear, controlled receptacles is one of the stupidest requirements ever. Anytime you rely on users to save energy, it fails. People will just put a piece of tape over the controlled receptacles.
 
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