Non-EGC'd 5-R is a fire hazard ??

[FionaZuppa]

hmmm, no EGC causes fires. interesting. so having a non-EGC'd GFCI is a fire hazard for 5-p cap corded appliances ?? is NEC missing something ??

1. Faulty outlets, appliances
Most electrical fires are caused by faulty electrical outlets and old, outdated appliances. Other fires are started by faults in appliance cords, receptacles and switches. Never use an appliance with a worn or frayed cord which can send heat onto combustible surfaces like floors, curtains, and rugs that can start a fire.

Running cords under rugs is another cause of electrical fires. Removing the grounding plug from a cord so it can be used in a two-prong electrical outlet can also cause a fire. The reason appliances have the extra prong is so they can be only used in outlets that can handle the extra amount of electricity that these appliances draw.

https://www.firerecruit.com/articles/1206100-5-common-causes-of-electrical-fires

 

[JFletcher]

hmmm, no EGC causes fires. interesting. so having a non-EGC'd GFCI is a fire hazard for 5-p cap corded appliances ?? is NEC missing something ??



https://www.firerecruit.com/articles/1206100-5-common-causes-of-electrical-fires

"The reason appliances have the extra prong is so they can be only used in outlets that can handle the extra amount of electricity that these appliances draw."

That is not the reason appliances have 3 prong plugs.

Also:

"5. Wiring
Outdated wiring often causes electrical fires. If a home is over 20 years old, it may not have the wiring capacity to handle the increased amounts of electrical appliances in today’s average home, such as computers, wide-screen televisions, video and gaming players, microwaves and air conditioners."

20 years? More like 35 imo. Also, most of those loads are relatively light.

It's a FF not electrical site, so some errors are going to be present.

 

[david luchini]

hmmm, no EGC causes fires. interesting. so having a non-EGC'd GFCI is a fire hazard for 5-p cap corded appliances ?? is NEC missing something ??

The article doesn't say no EGC causes fires. It says removing the grounding prong from a plug can cause fires.

 

[FionaZuppa]

The article doesn't say no EGC causes fires. It says removing the grounding prong from a plug can cause fires.

ok, maybe you missed it

are these not the same thing, EGC wise? no EGC for both, yes?

NEMA 1-R, and a 5-P w/ broken off EGC pin = NEMA 5-R w/ no EGC, and a 5-P

It says removing the grounding prong from a plug can cause fires

so you agree with it?

 

[david luchini]

ok, maybe you missed it

Didn't miss anything. "No EGC causes fires" is not in the article.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Didn't miss anything. "No EGC causes fires" is not in the article.

whaaaat?
it is exactly what is in the article, and i quoted it, let me quote it again

Removing the grounding plug from a cord so it can be used in a two-prong electrical outlet can also cause a fire

what does it mean when you break off the EGC pin of a NEMA 5- cap cord ??? no EGC, thats what it means.
you understand it to mean something different??

 

[david luchini]

whaaaat?
is is exactly what is in the article, and i quoted it, let me quote it again

This...

Removing the grounding plug from a cord so it can be used in a two-prong electrical outlet can also cause a fire

and this...

no EGC causes fires

are not exactly the same thing.

you understand it to mean something different??

I understand "removing the grounding plug from a cord" to mean that altering a piece of equipment to use it outside it's intended use is hazardous.

Do you see anything in the article that states that using 1-R with a 1-P (no EGC) can cause a fire?

 

[FionaZuppa]

I understand "removing the grounding plug from a cord" to mean that altering a piece of equipment to use it outside it's intended use is hazardous.

let me ask another way and see what you think.

NEMA 1-R, and a 5-P w/ broken off EGC pin = NEMA 5-R w/ no EGC, and a 5-P

Removing the grounding plug from a cord so it can be used in a two-prong electrical outlet can also cause a fire

do you feel these two scenarios are a hazard using the article as a reference?
the bolded red is exactly what the scenario is as written in the article, and for your clarity, "NEMA 1-R, and a 5-P w/ broken off EGC pin = NEMA 5-R w/ no EGC, and a 5-P" text is not written in the article, i have chosen to express that scenario in terms of NEMA and manipulated cap-cord, just as many people would.

 

[user 100]

"The reason appliances have the extra prong is so they can be only used in outlets that can handle the extra amount of electricity that these appliances draw."
.

Yeah, I pretty much discounted the article he quoted after seeing that- the rest seems to be a mishmash of standard fire safety stuff

I understand "removing the grounding plug from a cord" to mean that altering a piece of equipment to use it outside it's intended use is hazardous.

I think I know where Fiona is going with this- he is probably once again trying to bolster his case for a 2wire GFCI by saying that a gfci w/ an egc would prevent a fire in the event of a frayed cord w/an egc- sufficient leakage to egc would trip gfci, maybe before standard breaker would......

If that is the case, he could just say that instead of having disagreements for a dozen pages.

 

[iwire]

let me ask another way and see what you think.

NEMA 1-R, and a 5-P w/ broken off EGC pin = NEMA 5-R w/ no EGC, and a 5-P
do you feel these two scenarios are a hazard using the article as a reference?
the bolded red is exactly what the scenario is as written in the article, and for your clarity, "NEMA 1-R, and a 5-P w/ broken off EGC pin = NEMA 5-R w/ no EGC, and a 5-P" text is not written in the article, i have chosen to express that scenario in terms of NEMA and manipulated cap-cord, just as many people would.

Do you see anything in the article that states that using 1-R with a 1-P (no EGC) can cause a fire?

 

[FionaZuppa]

Do you see anything in the article that states that using 1-R with a 1-P (no EGC) can cause a fire?

nope, i see it saying a 5-P w/o EGC is the issue. did i ever say 1R w/ 1P ??? nope.

a 5-P w/o EGC is the same hazard as a 5-P in a 5-R that has no EGC :thumbsup:

 

[iwire]

nope, i see it saying a 5-R w/o EGC is the issue. did i ever say 1R w/ 1P ??? nope.

You said

Non-EGC'd 5-R is a fire hazard

That is not what the article you posted says.

But lets go another direction.

Lets say for the sake of argument a 'Non-EGC'd 5-R is a fire hazard'.

You have obviously been thinking about this a lot so I would like to know your solution to the problem.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Lets say for the sake of argument a 'Non-EGC'd 5-R is a fire hazard'.

You have obliviously been thinking about this a lot so I would like to know your solution to the problem.

nope, was on the line of, "a missing egc can cause a fire?????", more of a baffling question is what it is.

its not my words, words of others. are the words of others just something that are not true, those folks are all dummies? NEC doesnt believe it either?

Damaged and ungrounded
power cords pose serious hazards to users of the appliance including electrical shock and risk of fire

That is not what the article you posted says.
You have obviously been thinking about this a lot so I would like to know your solution to the problem.

non egc'd 5-R is the exact same thing as a egc'd 5-r and non egc 5-P. do i need to say this again??

put the [place you fav curse word here] non broken 5-P into the [put your fav curse word here] non egc'd 5-R. what do you get???!!! ---> you get the [put your fav curse word here] article scenario!!!

SCENARIO:
You encounter a co-worker on a residential remodeling job.
She has an older drill with a steel housing and a 3-prong
plug. The wiring in the building has only two-slot receptacles
– with no “equipment ground” slot. She is just about to break
off the grounding prong on the tool’s plug with a pair of
pliers when you ask her to stop.

 

[user 100]

nope, was on the line of, "a missing egc can cause a fire?????", more of a baffling question is what it is.

its not my words, words of others. are the words of others just something that are not true, those folks are all dummies? NEC doesnt believe it either?



non egc'd 5-R is the exact same thing as a egc'd 5-r and non egc 5-P. do i need to say this again??

put the [place you fav curse word here] non broken 5-P into the [put your fav curse word here] non egc'd 5-R. what do you get???!!! ---> you get the [put your fav curse word here] article !!!

So ultimately you are concerned with the fire hazard associated with missing egcs in cord/branch circuits and if the NEC has any applicable solutions for this?

Or how lack of egcs could increase the risk of fire?

 

[FionaZuppa]

So ultimately you are concerned with the fire hazard associated with missing egcs in cord/branch circuits and if the NEC has any applicable solutions for this?

sure, if that how you see the issue. at no time should NEC allow 5-R's of any type to be placed in 2-wire wiring ! there are multiple hazards in doing so.

side Q - does anyone here, perhaps even the NEC members, know how to do Root Cause Analysis backwards, kinda like doing differential equations ?

 

[user 100]

sure, if that how you see the issue. at no time should NEC allow 5-R's of any type to be placed in 2-wire wiring ! there are multiple hazards in doing so.?

Fair enough-

Now explain how lack of an egc could contribute to a fire.

 

[iwire]

nope, was on the line of, "a missing egc can cause a fire?????", more of a baffling question is what it is.

its not my words,

You title, your words.

non egc'd 5-R is the exact same thing as a egc'd 5-r and non egc 5-P. do i need to say this again??

put the [place you fav curse word here] non broken 5-P into the [put your fav curse word here] non egc'd 5-R. what do you get???!!! ---> you get the [put your fav curse word here] article scenario!!!

Try again in English.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Fair enough-

Now explain how lack of an egc could contribute to a fire.

i dunno, its stated by numerous other entities. post #1 is more of a question. if i follow the cool-aid of the other entities it tells me having 5-R w/o EGC is kinda a bad thing, or at least exposes a few hazards we should not expose.

take the OSHA example as example. lets say Jane doesnt break off her egc pin and see's a, what looks like a freshly installed, 5-15R, she plugs in, but there is no EGC on the -R side. the hazard as explained by OSHA is the exact same hazard, except a big note here, user thinks its all good, the 5-P fit the 5-R just fine, little does she know she just walked into a hazard.

 

[iwire]

at no time should NEC allow 5-R's of any type to be placed in 2-wire wiring !

So I am a homeowner, my two wire receptacle is cracked and broken. Under your prospered ban what happens now?

 

[FionaZuppa]

So I am a homeowner, my two wire receptacle is cracked and broken. Under your prospered ban what happens now?

install a new Leviton 223-W, or if on old brown paneling, the 223 item.