FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
what NEC section for AFCI required if replacing a device? 2014 406.4(D)(4) and (D)(5) ?
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Non-EGC'd 5-R is a fire hazard ??
- Thread starter FionaZuppa
- Start date
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- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
That is exactly what you said. Here is your op....
That has been half the argument that you have failed to address. Aside from the fact that the article is full of inaccuracies it also has nothing to do with gfci protected circuits.
eta, I see user100 was faster than me.
- Location
- Massachusetts
406.4(D)(4) / 210.12
Pretty sure Hildenbrand already answered this, but here it is again from the 2014 NEC:
406.4(D)(4) Arc Fault circuit interrupter protection:
"Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc fault circuit interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this code, a replacement receptacle at this outlet shall be protected by one of the following":
1) A listed outlet branch circuit arc fault circuit interrupter receptacle
2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch circuit arc fault circuit interrupter type receptacle
3) A receptacle protected by a listed arc fault combination type arc fault circuit interrupter breaker.
There are no exceptions to this in the 2014..........
And I see iwire beat me to it...
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
And I see iwire beat me to it...
I'm gonna make some popcorn and sit this one out for a while and let you speed demons hash it out.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
ok, swap your dead 1-R with a new 1-R, swap out breaker for AFCI one. what do you do if you cant install afci recpt, or the old 2-wire panel has no made afci breakers? i guess you just screwed, better just dead plate that broken 1-R?
(D)(5) seems silly, they dont make tamper proof 1-R's
Why wouldn't you be able to install the new afci/gfci receptacle to replace a 2 wire receptacle?
The non manufacture of tamper resistant 1-15's is silly?
This is from earlier............
which was answered here
V V V V V V V V
and here too
V V V V V
- Location
- Massachusetts
My house like hundreds of thousands across the country has old K&T wiring. Often you cannot install an AFCI or GFCI breaker on theses circuits due to the old wiring methods crossing of neutrals between circuits.
And you see this as a solution? Force people to use extension cords because they called an electrician to replace a broken device but the only option was blank off the outlet or do a full blown panel change?
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
there's also exception in 406 for GFCI not fitting the box, so a swap to same type of recept is allowed, but the exception forces GFCI.
but again, do they make GFCI breakers for your perhaps very old 2-wire panel?
if the NEC is attempting to mandate people spend $$$ to install GFCI/AFCI in places where previously they were not required to for replacing existing gear, i suspect many AHJ's will simply write amendments around that.
extension cords? i guess so if the 2014 NEC mandates that a replacement 1-R to 1-R has to have GFCI/AFCI if the location requires it yet technically you cant do that unless now you dig into your wallet for some other upgrade. folks on limited income will never go for the extra upgrade if a new 1-R costs $1 at HD, and a local "electrician" will install it for $20 because s/he is being nice to the old folks. and who's getting a permit to replace a broken 1-R ??
from NEC view, perhaps the 2014 mandates in 406 are a form of safety. from a practicality of enforcement (REAL WORLD), useless like so many laws we have on the books. if NEC is on a new path to continuously write in code that impacts previous code rev's in context of fixing or replacing otherwise compliant stuff, the code book will essentially become bloated w/ useless words. NEC should focus on NEW installations and correct for safety via their 3yr cycles. imho.
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FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
406.12, yes, see that[B said:
the cheapest way? $1 to replace a broken 1-R vs (how much do you charge to install new box w/ afci & silly sticker + permit/inspection costs for this modify)? oh yeah, the box is inside block wall.
so instead of fostering a $1 fix to fix the hazard as it exists, the NEC makes fixing the hazard questionable, possibly even enticing people to do their own 1-R to 1-R swap (legal to do) but perhaps dangerous because many dont know 1st thing about safety in doing so.
ah yes, makes perfect REAL WORLD sense to me. :thumbsup:
who here in on a CMP? what # CMP? (are you an alternate?)
who here is on a TCC?
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Good, now you can find something else to whine about.
There are members here but as far as discussions in this forum their comments hold no more weight than any other member.
Now, considering all your complaining let me ask you if you have ever looked at the last page of your code book?
Roger
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Setting aside your dripping sarcastic irony, I can tell you are finally starting to grapple with the possibility of doing your wiring to the un-amended 2014 NEC. I had to go through a similar struggle. The un-amended 2014 NEC 406.4 is a HUGE change. The OBC AFCI and dual function OBC GFCI/AFCI are available, all you have to do is buy them.
The 2017 NEC 406.4 offers no change in direction from the 2014 NEC 406.4.
The State of Minnesota, with Statewide AHJ enforces the UNAMENDED 2014 NEC. Regardless of whether I pull a permit or not, for a simple solitary receptacle replacement, I am bound by statute to do the work to that un-amended Code.
Your statement that "the cheapest way? $1 to replace a broken 1-R" is a solution that will be failed by an inspector, here in Minnesota when the receptacle is in the areas of a dwelling specified in 210.12..
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
am i speaking french to a spanish speaking community?
the $1 fix is not my fix, its the customers fix when you tell them that the $1 1-R swap is gonna cost them $1500 because you need to chop out concrete/block, install a new box, install an expensive afci/gfci, have it inspected, all because the new 2014 NEC that is 70 years newer than cust home says so. customer gonna tell you "have a nice day".
i never once said you are not doing the right thing, was just highlighting REAL WORLD scenario, of which the NEC doesnt seem to get on some issues.
so what was the big push for 2014 NEC to impact replacing a 1-R with a 1-R in an older 2 wire home? previous revs allowed it. was there some form of rash issues that suddenly cropped up that had to be addressed in the 2014 rev?
TexasMaster
Member
- Location
- Lubbock Texas
Extension ring... wiremold ext. namely is not that atrocious esthetically
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Exactly...your posts are all gibberish to me.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
No, NFPA 70 is titled The National Electrical Code. The NEC is not a sub code/standard under NFPA 70.
FFs in and of themselves really have nothing directly to do with the NEC in the course of their duties.
The NEC is for electrical safety and the prevention of fires, while FFs are for extinguishing fires and rescuing people.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
looks like NEC is dicated under a fire trade association. why is NEC not under FEMA, or IEEE, or a NEPA ???
the NEC is written under NFPA code # "NFPA70". there is no NFPA code # titled "NEC", the name assigned to NFPA70 code is "NEC"
the NFPA has hierachy; CODE#[name]
http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Oh for pete's sake. The name of a document/book/etc is its title.:slaphead:
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- Placerville, CA, USA
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