Sounds reasonable to me.......:smile:
Now THIS was funny...........
- Thread starter 220/221
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Sounds reasonable to me.......:smile:
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
I don't agree with that. Allhot work is equal in that it can kill or injure you, no matter how "safe" or "skilled" you think you are.
Its true all can kill you, but its not all equal. The likelyhood is drastically different depending on the job, just as the PPE requirements are different, depending on the calories present....
76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
I can agree to that. Working service and maintenance for most of my term, I work hot ALL the time. You wouldn't believe how much I have been ridiculed and poked fun at because of the precautions I take, but I come home at night. I am not saying by ANY means I work safer than you, please understand that! Let's take PQA for example, how are we supposed to do that? You can't and I see your point.
I have mostly been involved with machine maintenance, most times I must work it hot. There have been MANY times where I couldn't of found the problems otherwise, while many will try to say that is nothing but BS.
I have been asked what was the point to suiting Class 2 gloves. Well as long as I can wear them comfortably, and they don't restrict me, then why not:-?
Stay safe, play hard:smile:
Yeah......technically. Where does the tshoot end and wiring begin? I just lump it together. Often I will kill the power to reassemble things because it is easier and I can do a better job if it's off. You can stick your fingers in there and tuck the wiring in better.
I often use the power to assist with the tshoot. We all do....I assume. You have 3 black wires. You find the power with your tester and you want to identify the sw lag. What do you do? I touch the hot to another black and see if the light comes on.
Is this not standard practice?
Do you turn off power, choose one, wirenut it, turn back on, see if light is on, turn off power, choose the other, wirenut it, turn power on? Maybe someone somewhere does this, but I doubt it.
Again, I am talking about rei wiring, NM and plastic boxes and decent conditions (standing up, dry at a sw box. Sheesh.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Working hot with PPE within OSHA guidelines, and doing what 220/221 did are a universe apart. I see them blending together in this discussion, and that will only add to the confusion of what is actually correct and what is not if something goes wrong (an accident leading to an OSHA investigation.)
76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Yeah, and you still nailed your self in the nose. What if you had been holding a screwdriver or other object and rammed it into your eye or your cheek? That would have been a lot more horrific than a nosebleed.
All extension cords can kill you, therefore never use an extension cord?
Speaking of...am I the only one who thinks twice when picking up a slightly damp extension cord to plug something in? ANY extension cord for that matter. THAT is where you are going to get hurt because you have a tight hold on both ends while plugging it in. I dry that thing off and look into the end for wet dirt/debris that could conduct.
What if I was working on 7000 volts, barefoot. I wasn't holding a screwdriver. I would not have been holding a screwdriver.
Tennis shoes, no gloves. I can't seem to operate my fingers with gloves on.
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76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
- Location
- Massachusetts
What part of my post is wrong?
Troubleshooting can kill you, it does happen.
Yeah that can happen to you many times with nothing more then a small bother, then the next time you could be dead.
What your trying to tell me is that we don't make mistakes. We walk every day fine, but we still trip sometimes.
A pair class 00 gloves would have saved your nose. (BTW that part was pretty darn funny
)
In most cases you would be required to put on the right PPE to verify voltage or lack of it.
If we where to follow the rules there are really only two ways to do it.
Kill the power to all exposed energized parts
OR
Suit up so you can not contact live parts. (There are also Arc flash requirements as well)
How, specifically could I have gotten hung up and killed/hurt (other than a bloody nose :grin
Touch the live part in different way???
Honestly work how you want but I stand by opinion, it is wrong for you to be trying to pass this on to your workers.
Do I follow all the rules 100%, no. But I am making a real attempt at getting there and not waste my time making up excuses why I should not work safer.
I tend to side with you, we are letting the goverment dictate every move we make. IMO these laws are mostly about liability management, than safety sometimes.
If I were a large employer I would have a different opinion, but for me,I agree, touching switch legs and identifing circuits is something I do all the time, as well as other simular task....
Half the EC's in this town probably cant spell PPE or OSHA, and probably wont need to.....but as liabilities increase things change ALOT...
I say, "know your calories"
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IMM_Doctor
Senior Member
Avoid working HOT
Avoid working HOT
The "working in a residential garage" got my attention, so I'll chime in on this one.
We only work industrial and commercial, but one of the industrial owners begged us to work at his house. (He has the money, so we say YES, SIR!)
We went to his house, (very old), and pull the POCO meter out of the meter socket on the outside of the garage. Directly inside the garage is a panel with the old SE cable with the fur falling off, (that is what we are going to replace). I use a pair of hand-held cable cutters to munch through the old SE cable and was met with ARC Flash and minor shock. I did not PUNCH MYSELF IN THE NOSE, but my reaction was to flung the hand-held cable cutter in a frisbee fashion across the garage, at MACH 6 VELOCITY, narrowingly missing the owners wife's Mercedes, and the cable cutters STUCK in the wall 15' away from where I was working.
In our area it is VERBOTTEN to have more than one POCO service on any building.*** (unless special circumstances). After I cleaned out my boxers, we found a second POCO meter on a utility pole about 40 feet from the garage.
P.S. If you are moving a step-ladder, and you hear some rustling noises... "Don't look up!". I will fess up to that mistake, and have been konked in the face with a large hammer, or whatever myself, or co-worker has left on the top step. It is funny after-the-fact, but I can tell you it almost knoked my tooth out.
Avoid working HOT
The "working in a residential garage" got my attention, so I'll chime in on this one.
We only work industrial and commercial, but one of the industrial owners begged us to work at his house. (He has the money, so we say YES, SIR!)
We went to his house, (very old), and pull the POCO meter out of the meter socket on the outside of the garage. Directly inside the garage is a panel with the old SE cable with the fur falling off, (that is what we are going to replace). I use a pair of hand-held cable cutters to munch through the old SE cable and was met with ARC Flash and minor shock. I did not PUNCH MYSELF IN THE NOSE, but my reaction was to flung the hand-held cable cutter in a frisbee fashion across the garage, at MACH 6 VELOCITY, narrowingly missing the owners wife's Mercedes, and the cable cutters STUCK in the wall 15' away from where I was working.
In our area it is VERBOTTEN to have more than one POCO service on any building.*** (unless special circumstances). After I cleaned out my boxers, we found a second POCO meter on a utility pole about 40 feet from the garage.
P.S. If you are moving a step-ladder, and you hear some rustling noises... "Don't look up!". I will fess up to that mistake, and have been konked in the face with a large hammer, or whatever myself, or co-worker has left on the top step. It is funny after-the-fact, but I can tell you it almost knoked my tooth out.
So your saying both Poco's were in phase? coming from same source? Bet you use your wiggy next time..... :0
ishium 80439
Senior Member
I think that is apples and oranges. There is one dictum that you forgot to abide "Test before touch". The OP knew the wire was hot.
I have to admit that I am in the camp of working stuff hot more than I should. I am not endorsing it for anyone else but it is a reality of the type of work that I do. I will not try to defend it on it's merits.
A while back on this forum I remember a similiar arguement. Someone made the point that it is an economic reality that when doing resi and light commercial service work the added time and expense that the customer would bear would exclude you from the job. If for every bad three way switch you had to suit up, test power, turn power off, splice pivot to traveller #1, repower for testing, power down, splice to traveler #2, power up.... well you get the idea.
I understand that this is slippery logic and some will try to bend it into "Well what are you going to skimp on next to save a few dollars?". That is not the case. I am merely pointing out the reality of this type of work. I certainly understand that bad things can and do happen w/ 120V. The only time I got locked up was on 120 (someone else working in the panel and energizing a circuit that had been dead all day w/o checking to see if he was clear). I didn't like it.
I certainly do much less hot work than I have done in the past and try to reinforce that with anyone I work with but I would be a liar if I said I didn't do it.
Never got a bloody nose but have had more than one fat lip from wire breaking when trying pull it out of a pipe in which it was "frozen".
The first thing I do after testing is short the wires out. Maybe the tester failed in the last ten minutes, maybe someone turned it on.....who knows.
I test and retest before I do anything like cut cable. Even with the meter out I am thinking someone could be stealing/backfeeding somewhere. Before I put my hands on it I will short it out somehow. I'd rather endure a flash than cardiac arrest.
I hear you, and agreeing with you, but I would recomend that the first thing you do after testing is test the tester. Shorting the wires is kinda like using a widow maker IMO , dangerous, maybe do that after testing the tester....
especially on a service entrance.....I test my tester all the time, at least evertime I use it.....Troubleshooting is probably more dangerous then anything going into MDP to take a voltage test can cause a devastating Arc Blast. Do everyone one a favor and take an NFPA 70-E course and buy/get proper PPE not just some safety glasses, or you shouldn't be doing electrical work.
OSHA requires employers to furnish to each of his employees employment and place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that are causing or likely to cause death or serious physical harmto his employees.
OSHA requirements state that live parts to which an employee may be exposed must be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations.
No residential work will ever fall under these requirements.
"Working things hot is part of my job.", "you cant shut that assembly line down it will cost me $$$$" (lines down for a couple hours is minnute compared to 3-day shutdowns for federal investigations for cause of death), "its the presidents office i cant shut him down to change this ballast"(is he going to come to your funeral?), "There are people on the bench if i dont work it hot someone else will", "i've been doing it this way for 30 years and nothing has ever happened to me"(yet...), "that PPE is is to expensive"(cheap compared to plastic surgery), "this PPE slows me down ,I can't work with these bulky gloves"(try doing it with no hands).
It's these cultures (misguided thoughts) that people get injured and killed.
tingling sensation -.5 to 3 mA
mucsle contraction and pain -3 to 10 mA
"let-go" threshold -10 to 40 mA
respiratory paralysis -30 to 75 mA
heart fibrillation -100 to 200 mA
tissue and organs -burn more than 1,500 mA or 1.5
Please DO NOT! do anymore hot work unless you cant perform otherwise.
OSHA requires employers to furnish to each of his employees employment and place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that are causing or likely to cause death or serious physical harmto his employees.
OSHA requirements state that live parts to which an employee may be exposed must be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations.
No residential work will ever fall under these requirements.
"Working things hot is part of my job.", "you cant shut that assembly line down it will cost me $$$$" (lines down for a couple hours is minnute compared to 3-day shutdowns for federal investigations for cause of death), "its the presidents office i cant shut him down to change this ballast"(is he going to come to your funeral?), "There are people on the bench if i dont work it hot someone else will", "i've been doing it this way for 30 years and nothing has ever happened to me"(yet...), "that PPE is is to expensive"(cheap compared to plastic surgery), "this PPE slows me down ,I can't work with these bulky gloves"(try doing it with no hands).
It's these cultures (misguided thoughts) that people get injured and killed.
tingling sensation -.5 to 3 mA
mucsle contraction and pain -3 to 10 mA
"let-go" threshold -10 to 40 mA
respiratory paralysis -30 to 75 mA
heart fibrillation -100 to 200 mA
tissue and organs -burn more than 1,500 mA or 1.5
Please DO NOT! do anymore hot work unless you cant perform otherwise.
I test the tester, then test the wires.
The final test, after I know they are dead, is to short them.
If all the testing of the wire and testing equipment fails, I'd rather see an arc than my maker. And, of course, I wouldn't just jamb the wires phase to phase. It's more of a sweeping contact like striking a match.
Again, it's not a primary test.:roll:
If it's busing or something that I have to tap or any other seriously dangerous work, I will test it like 10 times. Even when I'm 100% sure it's off, I will touch it gently/quickly before I put a socket and ratchet on it.
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