Now THIS was funny...........

[nunu161]

the best way to test a meter is a live-dead-live test. but PPE is still important removing meter leads from a buss doing a simple voltage check can end your life by causing an arcing fault using the air as a conductor

 

[Mule]

Troubleshooting is probably more dangerous then anything going into MDP to take a voltage test can cause a devastating Arc Blast. Do everyone one a favor and take an NFPA 70-E course and buy/get proper PPE not just some safety glasses, or you shouldn't be doing electrical work.


OSHA requires employers to furnish to each of his employees employment and place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that are causing or likely to cause death or serious physical harmto his employees.

OSHA requirements state that live parts to which an employee may be exposed must be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations.

No residential work will ever fall under these requirements.

"Working things hot is part of my job.", "you cant shut that assembly line down it will cost me $$$$" (lines down for a couple hours is minnute compared to 3-day shutdowns for federal investigations for cause of death), "its the presidents office i cant shut him down to change this ballast"(is he going to come to your funeral?), "There are people on the bench if i dont work it hot someone else will", "i've been doing it this way for 30 years and nothing has ever happened to me"(yet...), "that PPE is is to expensive"(cheap compared to plastic surgery), "this PPE slows me down ,I can't work with these bulky gloves"(try doing it with no hands).

It's these cultures (misguided thoughts) that people get injured and killed.

tingling sensation -.5 to 3 mA
mucsle contraction and pain -3 to 10 mA
"let-go" threshold -10 to 40 mA
respiratory paralysis -30 to 75 mA
heart fibrillation -100 to 200 mA
tissue and organs -burn more than 1,500 mA or 1.5

Please DO NOT! do anymore hot work unless you cant perform otherwise.

Sounds like good advice, but Im curious with your comments, How long have you been in the trade? you sound younger and perhaps a "post 70E" jman...wrong?

I test the tester, then test the wires.

The final test, after I know they are dead, is to short them.

If all the testing of the wire and testing equipment fails, I'd rather see an arc than my maker. And, of course, I wouldn't just jamb the wires phase to phase. It's more of a sweeping contact like striking a match.

Again, it's not a primary test.:roll:

If it's busing or something that I have to tap or any other seriously dangerous work, I will test it like 10 times. Even when I'm 100% sure it's off, I will touch it gently/quickly before I put a socket and ratchet on it.

You the man, sorry I read into to post like that, just wanted to make it more clear.....

Then on your busing comment, that the time for grounding out,with proper PPE of course first, Im sure you do that too, ....

 

[nunu161]

I'm 21 working in the field for 5 years achieved my jmans license at 19 and taking my masters next month and im in my 7th year of schooling, and yes i took the osha-30 program 9 months ago and 70E 6 months ago, I've done hot work but only for testing purposes only there are no reasons i cant shut it down.

 

[Mule]

I'm 21 working in the field for 5 years achieved my jmans license at 19 and taking my masters next month and im in my 7th year of schooling, and yes i took the osha-30 program 9 months ago and 70E 6 months ago, I've done hot work but only for testing purposes only there are no reasons i cant shut it down.

Ok, that's what I thought, and I also bet your agression comes from the brotherhood as well..... which is not really a bad thing...

I agree with you 90%....don't forget that "pre 70E" electricians go back, WAY back and are the fathers of our trade... and that's a culture that us old dogs seem to hang on to. And when you've worked with-out incident for 35 years it seems silly to change. But it doesnt matter now because its law........:smile:

And, as for OSHA we have the IBEW to thank for that, they pushed it into existence according to a documentry I seen on TV

 

[nunu161]

not the ibew, but the AFL-CIO and you also thank them for minimum wage, workers comp, unemployment, and most of all an 8-hour work day. But courses are offered all over for osha-30 and 70e theres no age limit on who can take them. It shouldnt be because "it's the law" it should be for your own personal safety. what if one of your employees got seriously injured can you afford a million dollar lawsuit for not providing and enforcing the use of PPE

 

[Mule]

not the ibew, but the AFL-CIO and you also thank them for minimum wage, workers comp, unemployment, and most of all an 8-hour work day. But courses are offered all over for osha-30 and 70e theres no age limit on who can take them

Well the progam I saw, the IBEW took the credit for OSHA not AFL-CIO.....

And I've had a 70E class thank you.....and no they didnt ask my age.

Young buck....

You'll simmer down in a few years......

and also, THANKS for the WC thankfully Im exempt from it now, never had a claim in 35 yrs.....And Im proud of that.....and unemployment which I dont get as a EC.....and that 8 hour day.....I dont get that either........

Just joking those are great accomplishments....THANKS

 

[Karl H]

I gotta say this, I'm an "Old School" electrician, like a lot of you guys here.
I was brought up thru the ranks by learning the ways of the "Older School"
electricians as most of you guys were. I've worked live circuits thousands
of times. Are we gonna pass down all these bad practices we perform
or used to perform to the new kids? I decided I'm not going to anymore.
My bad habits that I learned are going to die with me. Knowing what I
know now, I'm very lucky I didn't die because of the bad habits
I was taught. As much education as we have now, I think we should be
the last generation that practiced dangerous methods, of working with
electricity. I don't think I could deal with a man losing
his life by working with electricity in a way that I taught him.

One thing we do on this forum,is talk like we are on a jobsite,telling the "Old
School" stories on how we used to do things. I like those stories cause
I've lived a lot of them and we have a lot of simular experiences in the field.
But, we are not on a jobsite we are on an internet forum and there are
young guys coming up thru the ranks learning from what we talk about.
Let's not teach the bad habits we were taught. Cause an unsafe method
you teach may not end with the same results as it did for you.

 

[benaround]

There is a funny side to this post and a serious side also, I don't think anyone can throw

the first stone.

 

[Mule]

I gotta say this, I'm an "Old School" electrician, like a lot of you guys here.
I was brought up thru the ranks by learning the ways of the "Older School"
electricians as most of you guys were. I've worked live circuits thousands
of times. Are we gonna pass down all these bad practices we perform
or used to perform to the new kids? I decided I'm not going to anymore.
My bad habits that I learned are going to die with me. Knowing what I
know now, I'm very lucky I didn't die because of the bad habits
I was taught. As much education as we have now, I think we should be
the last generation that practiced dangerous methods, of working with
electricity. I don't think I could deal with a man losing
his life by working with electricity in a way that I taught him.

One thing we do on this forum,is talk like we are on a jobsite,telling the "Old
School" stories on how we used to do things. I like those stories cause
I've lived a lot of them and we have a lot of simular experiences in the field.
But, we are not on a jobsite we are on an internet forum and there are
young guys coming up thru the ranks learning from what we talk about.
Let's not teach the bad habits we were taught. Cause an unsafe method
you teach may not end with the same results as it did for you.

I agree, well mostly, I still think 70E is a portion safety and a portion liability management. I'll still will be using my own brain and judging my own aproach as to working things hot or not, or utilizing PPE, rather than just following the book.

So that's where I'll be untill its forced upon me, or I get a client which requires compliance.....:smile:

 

[iwire]

U.S. Department of Labor statistics show that electrocution (i.e., fatal electrical injury) ranks as the second leading cause of death in the construction industry. An average of over 3600 disabling and 4000 nondisabling electrical work-related injuries are recorded annually (FR 55(151):32011, Table 5). Electrical injury accidents typically involve male employees between the ages of 20 and 45 years. Contact injuries from accidental exposure to high voltage (>1000 V) electrical energy affect at least one extremity in almost 70% of cases. Severe trauma from the electrical and thermal mechanisms of injury can result in the need for survivors to undergo multiple surgeries, including amputations.......

.................................

 

[brian john]

I worked with an apprentice that bought new skinners, at lunch he was trying them on various conductor sizes and insulation. He pulled them real hard on some THW towards his face. When the insulation cut he busted his self on the nose, BIG cut and ended up with a black eye. Needless to say we were rolling on the floor.

 

[220/221]

Electrical injury accidents typically involve male employees between the ages of 20 and 45 years.

I'm way South of 45 so I guess I'm clear

 

[TOOL_5150]

I worked with an apprentice that bought new skinners, at lunch he was trying them on various conductor sizes and insulation. He pulled them real hard on some THW towards his face. When the insulation cut he busted his self on the nose, BIG cut and ended up with a black eye. Needless to say we were rolling on the floor.

as I read that, I could picture someone doing that and just about spit soda on my monitor

~Matt

 

[TwinCitySparky]

I always liked the anology that working hot is like driving a two lane highway. At any moment with the slightest move of the hand in a moment of inattentiveness it can all come to a horrific ending. We all hope the oncoming traffic is being as carefull as us but "stuff" happens in that regard too. We have no choice when we drive these highways - but to always try to save a customer a few bucks by working hot is just plain goofy.

Yes I occasionally work hot but - Like Bob, I am trying to throw away the excuses. Typically again It's usually all about saving a buck -Someone elses- or trying to be quicker than the other sparky.

Just Goofy.

 

[ishium 80439]

I guess that I can kind of relate to smokers. There is nothing redeeming about it. All the evidence points to the fact that is dangerous and perhaps deadly. I am trying to cut down. It is growing more and more socially unacceptable. There are ever increasing laws to curtail my activity. I swear I'm going to quit one day.

 

[stickboy1375]

I swear I'm going to quit one day.

We all die eventully... Seriously, they only reason you still smoke is because you want to.... I smoked for over 15 years. One day I quit, its really that simple.

 

[Mule]

U.S. Department of Labor statistics show that electrocution (i.e., fatal electrical injury) ranks as the second leading cause of death in the construction industry. An average of over 3600 disabling and 4000 nondisabling electrical work-related injuries are recorded annually (FR 55(151):32011, Table 5). Electrical injury accidents typically involve male employees between the ages of 20 and 45 years. Contact injuries from accidental exposure to high voltage (>1000 V) electrical energy affect at least one extremity in almost 70% of cases. Severe trauma from the electrical and thermal mechanisms of injury can result in the need for survivors to undergo multiple surgeries, including amputations.......

That's pretty easy, working these kind of voltages requires experience and knowldege. Working this kind of stuff without complete compliance with 70E is just stupid.

I've managed turnaround switchgear contractors whom show up at the job with one person that knows is stuff and a bunch kids that are breaker busters and barely can run a vacumn cleaner and a alchol rag. These EC's are just money hungry and need to be put in jail IMO....

Big difference between >1000volts and a #14 resi hot, in reguard to our discussion here....IMO

 

[Sparky555]

Big difference between >1000volts and a #14 resi hot, in reguard to our discussion here....IMO

It's the amps that kill you (approx. 100mA)

 

[ActionDave]

Is it the amps or the power?
I gots a solder gun that kicks the current up to about 225A when I pull the trigger. I use it whenever I can 'cause I think soldering is fun. It ain't killed me yet. When it's said that it's the amps that kill you is there an automatic assumption of a certain voltage level?

 

[LarryFine]

It's the amps that kill you (approx. 100mA)

Just to play devil's advocate: the higher the voltage, the greater the current through a given resistance (or body.)