Open Service Neutral GFCI/RCD Detector

[mbrooke]

Why doesn't the US just use 240v too line to line and omit using the neutral as 120v? What's with 120v? It requires thicker wires from more current. Our 240v appliance has thinner wires. Rest of world use 220-240v. Maybe USA uses 120v to avail of lower 150v MCOV Surge Protective Devices to take advantage of lower let thru voltage (related to the VPR) for better surge protection?

American exceptionalism and chauvinism at worst. At best, legacy. Its just the voltage that we started off with and at no point was it seen as being worth the effort to change it. Granted sooner rather then latter is always better, but if everything works well enough, why change it? That and the fact the code restricts residential equipment under 1440 va and lighting to 120 volts. Of course I doubt it has much to do with safety.


Now, if I ran the world I'd certainly convert the US over to 240 and connect everything line to line. It would simply wiring, code, safety, human health and electrical theory profoundly. To me its just common sense, but come reality I am just one voice.

 

[kwired]

American exceptionalism and chauvinism at worst. At best, legacy. Its just the voltage that we started off with and at no point was it seen as being worth the effort to change it. Granted sooner rather then latter is always better, but if everything works well enough, why change it? That and the fact the code restricts residential equipment under 1440 va and lighting to 120 volts. Of course I doubt it has much to do with safety.


Now, if I ran the world I'd certainly convert the US over to 240 and connect everything line to line. It would simply wiring, code, safety, human health and electrical theory profoundly. To me its just common sense, but come reality I am just one voice.

Plus there is way too much existing stuff to continue to power.

Some countries maybe had a bigger mix of things but when war destroyed so much it was easier to rebuild with whatever seemed best at the time.

 

[mbrooke]

Plus there is way too much existing stuff to continue to power.

Some countries maybe had a bigger mix of things but when war destroyed so much it was easier to rebuild with whatever seemed best at the time.

I agree to an extent- but not every country was war torn when the conversion took place. In part cost and standardization played a role. There are strong incentives in using higher voltages.

 

[kwired]

I agree to an extent- but not every country was war torn when the conversion took place. In part cost and standardization played a role. There are strong incentives in using higher voltages.

There wasn't all the gadgets then as there is today. Don't know how easy such a conversion would be today.

We have required 4 wire circuit to ranges and dryers for 20+ years now (on all new installs). There is still a lot of 3 wire receptacles in use, there is still 3 wire receptacles being installed where they should be 4 wire.

Banning use of 5-15 and 5-20 receptacles? Might just become top news story if successfully enforced even just 1% of the time.

 

[mbrooke]

There wasn't all the gadgets then as there is today. Don't know how easy such a conversion would be today.

True, but in the future there will likely be even more gadgets if the trend continues. Earlier is always better then latter.

We have required 4 wire circuit to ranges and dryers for 20+ years now (on all new installs). There is still a lot of 3 wire receptacles in use, there is still 3 wire receptacles being installed where they should be 4 wire.

That is true, but remember that every single POCO service is still 3 wire. There are plenty of 3 wire sub-panels in existence, neutrals doing equipment grounding in legacy installations and inadvertent standing neutral to ground fault in most building be it miss wired secondary derived systems or ground wires pressed against the neutral terminal of a wiring device. The truth is that we have neutral current flowing on everything even slightly conductive. Current that today is none linear.

Banning use of 5-15 and 5-20 receptacles? Might just become top news story if successfully enforced even just 1% of the time.

I would never ban them, rather have 230 volt receptacles gradually phased in next to 120 volt receptacles.

 

[kwired]

True, but in the future there will likely be even more gadgets if the trend continues. Earlier is always better then latter.



That is true, but remember that every single POCO service is still 3 wire. There are plenty of 3 wire sub-panels in existence, neutrals doing equipment grounding in legacy installations and inadvertent standing neutral to ground fault in most building be it miss wired secondary derived systems or ground wires pressed against the neutral terminal of a wiring device. The truth is that we have neutral current flowing on everything even slightly conductive. Current that today is none linear.






I would never ban them, rather have 230 volt receptacles gradually phased in next to 120 volt receptacles.

I know the range/dryer thing isn't exactly the same thing, but look at all the controversy it causes, especially for anybody that doesn't understand why the change, and there aren't nearly as many of these around as there is 5-15 and 5-20 receptacles.

We will never phase out the 5-15/5-20 receptacles in our lifetime or even the next 4-5 generations I would think. Though a lot of today's stuff don't last as long as stuff did in the past, so in 150 years you maybe won't see anybody wanting to power that 50 year old appliance - it simply will be worn out before it is 10 years old.:happyyes:

They still may want to power something built in 1950 though

 

[mbrooke]

I know the range/dryer thing isn't exactly the same thing, but look at all the controversy it causes, especially for anybody that doesn't understand why the change, and there aren't nearly as many of these around as there is 5-15 and 5-20 receptacles.

I'd make the pitch most of that controversy stems around how to correctly convert the appliance to 3 wire or 4 wire. What do with the strap? Where do I place the white wire connected to frame? The green wire? How is it ok to put the green on the neutral screw? Is it really connected to the neutral or the frame? I've also seen plenty of DIY guys post pics of 10-2 and 6-2 not understanding why everyone is telling them it needs to be changed or why the whole run needs to be re-done because the range or cooktop is being moved 5 feet. Even saw a DIY thread where a ground bar was arcing in a new subpanel because the bare neutrals were landed there to the stove and dryer.


Then you have the whole debacle on portable generators. Separately derived vs none. 3 pole vs 4 pole ATS. Grounded vs none grounded.

Even at the code level there is much debate about paralleling generators, solar grounding, and data center installations.

It confuses the best and brightest, much the less joe homeowner who neither has the PhD with life's devotion, gifted mind, nor the correct information at hand.

We will never phase out the 5-15/5-20 receptacles in our lifetime or even the next 4-5 generations I would think. Though a lot of today's stuff don't last as long as stuff did in the past, so in 150 years you maybe won't see anybody wanting to power that 50 year old appliance - it simply will be worn out before it is 10 years old.:happyyes:

They still may want to power something built in 1950 though

Give it time- they will fall into history.

 

[kwired]

Give it time- they will fall into history.

I'm sure they will, but like I said I don't think that will happen in at least next 4-5 generations, and probably will be even longer then that, if a generation is considered to be somewhere around 20 years. Receptacle style I suppose I could see get changed, and adapters will flood the market to still power older things, but 120 volt nominal as a standard supply voltage for most general items I don't see going away. Low voltage for limited power items I can see coming into the picture more than it has so far.

 

[mbrooke]

I'm sure they will, but like I said I don't think that will happen in at least next 4-5 generations, and probably will be even longer then that, if a generation is considered to be somewhere around 20 years. Receptacle style I suppose I could see get changed, and adapters will flood the market to still power older things, but 120 volt nominal as a standard supply voltage for most general items I don't see going away. Low voltage for limited power items I can see coming into the picture more than it has so far.

Time will tell.

 

[Adamjamma]

There wasn't all the gadgets then as there is today. Don't know how easy such a conversion would be today.

We have required 4 wire circuit to ranges and dryers for 20+ years now (on all new installs). There is still a lot of 3 wire receptacles in use, there is still 3 wire receptacles being installed where they should be 4 wire.

Banning use of 5-15 and 5-20 receptacles? Might just become top news story if successfully enforced even just 1% of the time.

might not need to ban them.. just make the change on them for the higher 240 volts.. many of them already can be 120 or 240 according to paperwork, maybe because of Thailand and other countries using them for 240v circuits...

 

[Adamjamma]

If I were to do a conversion such as proposed, the phasing in of 240 circuits in homes in the USA, I would do it using Euro colors for the 240 circuits... so that one could look in the breaker panels or the outlets and immediately see the difference... Also would require the UK outlets for 240... and UK plugs as well..
But biggest change might be to add in the panels like used in Germany... Schneider and some other companies make some very nice panels that could be used with a few bars for the breakers, and allow the different systems to be mixed properly, grounded and neutrals run for the systems to be checked easily, and the breakers are all protected... just takes a slightly different way of thinking and carrying those cut apart bus bar systems, knowing whether you need a 3 pole bus bar or a two pole bus bar or a single pole bus bar to slot in on the different levels... Many of the breakers are already UL listed and CL listed by manufacturers for various voltages and response times, the only main problem right now being the Arc Fault systems...
But, I for one would be glad to see it... though many for now would keep buying the 120v appliances but you might be surprised to see just how many tools and appliances, including decent electronic gear, that can plug into either 120 or 240 with just an adapter. Plus, my daughters all electric three story house in the UK runs about the same per month for her utilities as my old apartment in Georgia ran me five years ago...

 

[mbrooke]

If I were to do a conversion such as proposed, the phasing in of 240 circuits in homes in the USA, I would do it using Euro colors for the 240 circuits... so that one could look in the breaker panels or the outlets and immediately see the difference... Also would require the UK outlets for 240... and UK plugs as well..

Personally, I would either go with a crow foot or inmetro plug:

Inmetro is very compact and has robust pins that are unlikely to break. It also takes Euro plugs.

But biggest change might be to add in the panels like used in Germany... Schneider and some other companies make some very nice panels that could be used with a few bars for the breakers, and allow the different systems to be mixed properly, grounded and neutrals run for the systems to be checked easily, and the breakers are all protected... just takes a slightly different way of thinking and carrying those cut apart bus bar systems, knowing whether you need a 3 pole bus bar or a two pole bus bar or a single pole bus bar to slot in on the different levels... Many of the breakers are already UL listed and CL listed by manufacturers for various voltages and response times, the only main problem right now being the Arc Fault systems...

Jraef knows the scope, but I believe IEC breakers are only listed for supplemental use here in the US. Could be wrong- but of course in reality there would be no issue.


If I had the say arc faults would not exist. They are simply marketing hubris.


Regarding panels I personally like the US system better. No offense but some Euro units are to flimsy for my liking. Abhor the lack of room- I like wide gutters.

But, I for one would be glad to see it... though many for now would keep buying the 120v appliances but you might be surprised to see just how many tools and appliances, including decent electronic gear, that can plug into either 120 or 240 with just an adapter. Plus, my daughters all electric three story house in the UK runs about the same per month for her utilities as my old apartment in Georgia ran me five years ago...

Agree here. Biggest hurdle will be incandescent sockets. They technically would not pass by today's standards, but to many of them exist to ditch them. A GU24 socket would fix the live screw shell issue, however people would still buy these risking shocks:

 

[tersh]

Say. Are plug-in breaker panel only used in the US or are these also used in say Russia or Africa?

Problem with plug-in breaker is if the contacts between bus bar stab and spring clips are not compatible like mixing panel and breaker brands in North America. This can result in fires. In fact this happened many dozens of times in the US.

For din rail breakers used in Europe. All brands and models are interchangeable right?

Has any American replace their plug in breakers with din rail breakers? If inspectors won't allow it. Can it work theoretically? In the Philippines where home panels are mostly plug-in style due to the American influence. Many vendors are selling din rail breakers and enclosures. So all plug in panel and breakers can be replaced with rail din panel and breakers right? And the latter is better? What is the advantage of each style? Can anyone share about din rail panel and breakers that burn and cause fire in Europe?

This is plug in panel.

 

[mbrooke]

DIN rail is none existent in the US. It will work in theory- but you don't find it here. Yes- technically you should not mix breakers, but I have seen it often.

 

[tersh]

DIN rail is none existent in the US. It will work in theory- but you don't find it here. Yes- technically you should not mix breakers, but I have seen it often.

I see.

Say. How many percentage of Americans know the meaning of the utility transformer centertap and it's relationship to grounding of appliances chassis? In the Philippines, 99.9999% (or almost all) of house owners don't know the meaning utility transformer centertap and why the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) must be connected to it to trip breakers when hot shorts to ground in the metal chassis. In fact. I didn't even know this when I spent 5 years in college studying Electronics Engineering (with some electrical subjects). It was only after an American Electrical Engineer who worked in nuclear power plants taught me about how to recognize my country transmission system and general concept of isolation transformers 3 months ago which I need to use to drive 120v surge protector to protect a sensitive fire alarm system with universal power supply (88v to 265v) with 300v surge ceiling that I learnt the principle of the utility transformer centertap to grounding of appliance/equipment metal chassis. In the USA, do 50% or more of home owners know the meaning of it? or only 5%. what do you think?

 

[kwired]

I see.

Say. How many percentage of Americans know the meaning of the utility transformer centertap and it's relationship to grounding of appliances chassis? In the Philippines, 99.9999% (or almost all) of house owners don't know the meaning utility transformer centertap and why the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) must be connected to it to trip breakers when hot shorts to ground in the metal chassis. In fact. I didn't even know this when I spent 5 years in college studying Electronics Engineering (with some electrical subjects). It was only after an American Electrical Engineer who worked in nuclear power plants taught me about how to recognize my country transmission system and general concept of isolation transformers 3 months ago which I need to use to drive 120v surge protector to protect a sensitive fire alarm system with universal power supply (88v to 265v) with 300v surge ceiling that I learnt the principle of the utility transformer centertap to grounding of appliance/equipment metal chassis. In the USA, do 50% or more of home owners know the meaning of it? or only 5%. what do you think?

We have too many electricians that don't fully understand grounded, grounding, neutral, center tap....no point in trying to answer how many Americans in general understand such things.

 

[tersh]

We have too many electricians that don't fully understand grounded, grounding, neutral, center tap....no point in trying to answer how many Americans in general understand such things.

In my country, our electricians are luckier because they don't need to understand grounded, grounding, neutal, center tap because none of our appliances have EGC so they don't need to connect it. Electricians are those who can properly cut wires, connect wires manually without using twisted caps or metal connectors, and tape them neatly as well as understand how the 2 hot lines are connected to the breaker panel.

It's something ordinary carpenters don't know. They don't need to study at any school. ​

For wires sizing. It is the engineers and city hall job to verify. That's all they do. They don't need to check for grounding that is why almost all homes don't have grounding wires, and no EGC. Only office building has third wire connected to panels but not used since all outlets are 2 prongs. Had we possessed 120v, it would be utter chaos with many electrified metal chassis and fried appliance from open service neutral, and the death from electrocution would be more than from lack of any EGC. So we are lucky to use only 2 hot lines. When US companies want to upgrade their transformers, they sell old ones to my country as surplus, so our centertap based transformers came from your old homes and Elm street.

 

[ptonsparky]

In my country, our electricians are luckier because they don't need to understand grounded, grounding, neutal, center tap because none of our appliances have EGC so they don't need to connect it. Electricians are those who can properly cut wires, connect wires manually without using twisted caps or metal connectors, and tape them neatly as well as understand how the 2 hot lines are connected to the breaker panel.

It's something ordinary carpenters don't know. They don't need to study at any school. ​

For wires sizing. It is the engineers and city hall job to verify. That's all they do. They don't need to check for grounding that is why almost all homes don't have grounding wires, and no EGC. Only office building has third wire connected to panels but not used since all outlets are 2 prongs. Had we possessed 120v, it would be utter chaos with many electrified metal chassis and fried appliance from open service neutral, and the death from electrocution would be more than from lack of any EGC. So we are lucky to use only 2 hot lines. When US companies want to upgrade their transformers, they sell old ones to my country as surplus, so our centertap based transformers came from your old homes and Elm street.

But if your electricians and engineers understood the grounded system you have, you wouldn’t be attempting to make your own first aid kit.

You are not required to ground that center tap to make those used transformers give you 240 volts. Leave them floating or ungrounded. Now what problem do you have?

 

[tersh]

But if your electricians and engineers understood the grounded system you have, you wouldn’t be attempting to make your own first aid kit.

You are not required to ground that center tap to make those used transformers give you 240 volts. Leave them floating or ungrounded. Now what problem do you have?

That's why installing GFCI which is solution to lack of EGC. Need 5mA GFCI for personal protection. Modern GFCI has auto-monitoring self test.

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/149/FAN41501-348130.pdf

"Periodic Functional Testing for Key GFIC Components:
GFCI Controller,
Solenoid,
Sense Transformer,
And Silicon-Controlled Rectifier (SCR)"​

The Fairchild FAN41501 auto-monitoring self test chipset seems quite sophisticated. Theoretically what components can't it check or miss? Only missing power to the solenoid coil? What is the usual components that can break down in relays. One the FAN41501 Chipset can miss.


The Siemens 2-pole GFCI breakers have this sophisticated auto-monitoring self test feature, but to use it. I have to put them in a subpanel. So I need EGC just to protect the subpanel metal chassis itself (say the bus bar melted to the metal chassis, etc.) so lately inquiring about a separate 30mA RCD (and local electrode ground rod (GEC) before the subpanel or connecting an EGC to the utility centertap which is so difficult because it would require rewiring and demolishing of driveway in the townhouse compound which neighbors won't allow.
​

 

[Adamjamma]

think there are three din rail sizes... bus bar stab ons like USA are non-existent..everything din bar... but the companies make their breakers slightly different in a way that the required face plates do not cover them. but the din rails allow you room to run certain wires under the breakers without worrying about them being damaged.
In UK you only have one level for the Din Rail but in France I have seen three din rails in one box... a good electrician makes it look very pretty and the standard is to make it easily traceable... your din rail breakers and the neutral and the ground wires are all at same spots on their respective groupings so testing can be easily done...if the breaker is number 5, the ground wire is number 5 and the neutral wire is number 5... not wherever the electrician wants to put it nut in a specific place...
Plus on is always up... not on or tripped is not up...

I can get breakers here rated for so many voltages and in so many packages but average breakers seem to stop at 63 amps..main breakers are 100 or 80 amps normally... no 200 amp panels so far here though have heard they are available in Europe.