Panel box above dryer legal or not

[charlie b]

Let me offer the following perspective, and see if it helps you in your conversation with the GC.

If you are working on a 120V panel and your hand touches something it should not, the current flowing through your hand will force the muscles to contract. That means you will grab the wire or bus bar all the more tightly, and you will not be able to let it go. It is possible, only just possible, that when the rest of your body goes limp, the weight of your falling body will pull your hand away from the panel. It is possible, only just possible, that this will be your only chance of surviving the incident.

Ask me where I first heard this perspective explained. I heard it first from Mike Holt himself. He made it clear that he knows full well that had he not fallen that day, he would have died.

Ever since I heard that story, I have treated the entire notion of working clearance with great respect. Please note that if you have to lean over the dryer to get to the panel, your body will not have the ability to fall.

So then, why is it important not to allow anything in the working space? Because some future electrician will be in a hurry, and not want to waste the time and effort to move the dryer (or the shelving unit, or the boxes, or whatever) out of the way before starting his quick and simple task.

 

[mwm1752]

I'm reading with disbelief -- move dryer-- not installed -- no one has even mentioned -- 240.24 Location in or on Premises(A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible and shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform, unless one of the following applies:
So if you OCD has to be readily accessible they cannot be mounted behind, above an appliance --
If you cannot Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth. Then there is non compliance & IMO part of the reason for clearances is to create ready access.

 

[GoldDigger]

I would say that the panel over (but not behind) the dryer is readily accessible unless the dryer is very deep or the panel is so high that you cannot reach it unless you are standing right next to it.
I do not think that leaning across a dryer is the same as climbing over it.
I still think the location is not compliant, just not for the reason you propose.

 

[mwm1752]

I would say that the panel over (but not behind) the dryer is readily accessible unless the dryer is very deep or the panel is so high that you cannot reach it unless you are standing right next to it.
I do not think that leaning across a dryer is the same as climbing over it.
I still think the location is not compliant, just not for the reason you propose.

I guess I should have highlighted "so forth" also

 

[DeltaFarce]

Let me offer the following perspective, and see if it helps you in your conversation with the GC.

If you are working on a 120V panel and your hand touches something it should not, the current flowing through your hand will force the muscles to contract. That means you will grab the wire or bus bar all the more tightly, and you will not be able to let it go. It is possible, only just possible, that when the rest of your body goes limp, the weight of your falling body will pull your hand away from the panel. It is possible, only just possible, that this will be your only chance of surviving the incident.

Ask me where I first heard this perspective explained. I heard it first from Mike Holt himself. He made it clear that he knows full well that had he not fallen that day, he would have died.

Ever since I heard that story, I have treated the entire notion of working clearance with great respect. Please note that if you have to lean over the dryer to get to the panel, your body will not have the ability to fall.

So then, why is it important not to allow anything in the working space? Because some future electrician will be in a hurry, and not want to waste the time and effort to move the dryer (or the shelving unit, or the boxes, or whatever) out of the way before starting his quick and simple task.

I've heard these stories before. But in reality, out of all the times I have been shocked (including twice this week), I have never not been able to let go. I have also never had to fall to break myself from whatever I was touching that shocked me. Could someone get stuck and require a fall to break it? Sure. But to say that it is going to happen and to have code require free space to allow it to happen is pretty crazy.

When I see or hear people saying these types of things, I see it as being the same jobsite rumors that say getting shocked from a neutral hurts more, or that a pullbox is required every 100 foot of a pipe run, or that you can't splice in panels. Just jobsite gossip based off of inaccuracies.

 

[DeltaFarce]

I'm reading with disbelief -- move dryer-- not installed -- no one has even mentioned -- 240.24 Location in or on Premises(A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible and shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform, unless one of the following applies:
So if you OCD has to be readily accessible they cannot be mounted behind, above an appliance --
If you cannot Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth. Then there is non compliance & IMO part of the reason for clearances is to create ready access.

The AHJ has no jurisdiction over what the homeowner does once the permit is closed. The inspector can't come into the house and cite a problem. If the homeowner wants to put a dryer in front of their panel, it is their right to do so. Once the electrical installation is completed and the permit closed, the NEC has no say in the matter, the homeowner is not bound by the NEC, nor is there a method to enforce the NEC on the homeowner.

So if the homeowner wants to move something in front of the panel, they can. Whether it's a dryer, a bunch of garbage, or anything else, they can do it as long as what they are putting in front of the panel doesn't require a permit to be installed.

IMO, I would much rather move a dryer out of the way (or sit on top of it, as I have in the past) then have to move the piles of useless old junk that most people stack in front of their panels :rant:

 

[growler]

I've heard these stories before. But in reality, out of all the times I have been shocked (including twice this week), I have never not been able to let go. I have also never had to fall to break myself from whatever I was touching that shocked me. Could someone get stuck and require a fall to break it? Sure. But to say that it is going to happen and to have code require free space to allow it to happen is pretty crazy.

IMO, I would much rather move a dryer out of the way (or sit on top of it, as I have in the past) then have to move the piles of useless old junk that most people stack in front of their panels :rant:

So you really don't see the danger of sitting on a dryer (with frame grounded) and working on a live panel?

The reason that you haven't been killed is because you have not been well grounded when you touch 120V live.

 

[petersonra]

So you really don't see the danger of sitting on a dryer (with frame grounded) and working on a live panel?

The reason that you haven't been killed is because you have not been well grounded when you touch 120V live.

why is he working live without gloves on in the first place?

the panel for my house is behind the refrigerator in the kitchen. maybe once a year I have to roll it out to reset a tripped breaker. never seemed like that big of a deal to me.

 

[DeltaFarce]

So you really don't see the danger of sitting on a dryer (with frame grounded) and working on a live panel?

Sure, but there is a lot of dangers out there and no realistic way to legislate and enforce against it.

The reason that you haven't been killed is because you have not been well grounded when you touch 120V live.

I think that's a bit too general to say for sure.

 

[charlie b]

The reason that you haven't been killed is because you have not been well grounded when you touch 120V live.

I think that's a bit too general to say for sure.

Perhaps. But the following statement isn't:

An accident that is waiting for a place to happen will, given time, find that place. (Famous saying by some famous person.)

 

[DeltaFarce]

Perhaps. But the following statement isn't:

Actually, that statement is WAY too general to say for sure :lol:

If only code was written based off of anecdotes and proverbs :slaphead:

 

[growler]

The reason that you haven't been killed is because you have not been well grounded when you touch 120V live.

I think that's a bit too general to say for sure.

We had a lineman that worked for one of the local power companies a few years ago. He had the same cavalier attitude to working with 120V as you do. He killed himself hooking up a residential service ( 120V to ground).

The effect of resistance to current flow is well known and one of the first safety measures to take is not to become the easiest path for current to flow to ground.

There is a reason we use heavy fiberglass ladders and not the nice light weight AL ladders.

Stand in a bath tub filled with water and grab hold of a live 120V circuit and see if you can let go.

 

[growler]

the panel for my house is behind the refrigerator in the kitchen. maybe once a year I have to roll it out to reset a tripped breaker. never seemed like that big of a deal to me.

It may not be that big of a deal for you to do this once a year in your own home but just try moving a refrigerator a couple times a day in other people's homes. They don't all move that easy.

 

[mwm1752]

The AHJ has no jurisdiction over what the homeowner does once the permit is closed. The inspector can't come into the house and cite a problem. If the homeowner wants to put a dryer in front of their panel, it is their right to do so. Once the electrical installation is completed and the permit closed, the NEC has no say in the matter, the homeowner is not bound by the NEC, nor is there a method to enforce the NEC on the homeowner.

So if the homeowner wants to move something in front of the panel, they can. Whether it's a dryer, a bunch of garbage, or anything else, they can do it as long as what they are putting in front of the panel doesn't require a permit to be installed.

IMO, I would much rather move a dryer out of the way (or sit on top of it, as I have in the past) then have to move the piles of useless old junk that most people stack in front of their panels :rant:

setting a dryer in front of a panel may be the homeowners right but to know there is a receptacle & dryer vent for a dryer to be placed there IMO is neglegence of duty for the inspector - for all I would know it could be a stacked unit covering the entire wall -- inspection rejected - still not readily accessible

 

[DeltaFarce]

setting a dryer in front of a panel may be the homeowners right but to know there is a receptacle & dryer vent for a dryer to be placed there IMO is neglegence of duty for the inspector - for all I would know it could be a stacked unit covering the entire wall -- inspection rejected - still not readily accessible

The existence of a receptacle and vent is meaningless. I have both in my basement, which haven't been used in I don't know how many years. When the previous owner switched to a NG dryer he also moved the location of the washer and dryer.

If I were to put a panel in the area that the vent and receptacle are and you failed it, I would take it to the state and you would lose, since you are dead wrong. The only "negligence of duty as an inspector" would be you using assumptions as fact.

 

[DeltaFarce]

We had a lineman that worked for one of the local power companies a few years ago. He had the same cavalier attitude to working with 120V as you do. He killed himself hooking up a residential service ( 120V to ground).

The effect of resistance to current flow is well known and one of the first safety measures to take is not to become the easiest path for current to flow to ground.

There is a reason we use heavy fiberglass ladders and not the nice light weight AL ladders.

Stand in a bath tub filled with water and grab hold of a live 120V circuit and see if you can let go.

Your assertion is still too general to say for sure.

 

[growler]

The existence of a receptacle and vent is meaningless. I have both in my basement, which haven't been used in I don't know how many years.

If I were to put a panel in the area that the vent and receptacle are and you failed it, I would take it to the state and you would lose, since you are dead wrong. The only "negligence of duty as an inspector" would be you using assumptions as fact.

If you put a panel over that vent you could be failed because the area under that panel is not clear. A dryer vent sticks out from the wall at least a couple of inches. You have not met working clearance requirments.

 

[DeltaFarce]

If you put a panel over that vent you could be failed because the area under that panel is not clear. A dryer vent sticks out from the wall at least a couple of inches. You have not met working clearance requirments.

My dryer vent does stick out past the wall, but not as far as the 2x4, the 3/4" plywood, and the 4" deep panel sticks out :lol:

Is there a fishing smilie here??

 

[mwm1752]

I would be happy to see what court would have to say -- Life safety means alot -- do you install like this? who the farce are you to threaten sound jugdement:slaphead: I aslo make assumptions when I see a room with plumbing for toilet,bathtub, & vanity as a bathroom which panels cannot be installed in.

 

[DeltaFarce]

I would be happy to see what court would have to say -- Life safety means alot -- do you install like this? who the farce are you to threaten sound jugdement:slaphead: I aslo make assumptions when I see a room with plumbing for toilet,bathtub, & vanity as a bathroom which panels cannot be installed in.

Did a farce threaten sound judgement? I'm really not sure what's going on.

Those rooms that you assume are going to be bathrooms, what are they shown as on the prints? Could they be future laundries? Future butler kitchens? Why are you bringing assumption into this at all? There is no room for assumption, they are either bathrooms or they are not.