Panel box above dryer legal or not

[growler]

I saw was the new floor plan has the panel box in the washer dryer closet, I asked him about it and he said just put it high enough the dryer doesn't cover it.

what are they shown as on the prints?

The OP states clearly that the washer/dryer closet is shown on the plans.

So what about that?

The inspector wouldn't have to make any assumptions about what this area is to be used for.

 

[DeltaFarce]

The OP states clearly that the washer/dryer closet is shown on the plans.

So what about that?

The inspector wouldn't have to make any assumptions about what this area is to be used for.

My reply that you quoted was to mwm1752 and his bathroom scenario, not the OP.

 

[macmikeman]

This Delta Farce guy sounds pretty intelligent and cool, probably would be my best NJ friend if I didn't already have one, but I think he is missing a big point. The code wizards wanted a nice clear space in front of panels so you can get the hell away from it quick in a phase to phase short circuit event that might just burn your entire face off of you if you are up on a ladder, or sitting on top of a dryer, or some other obstruction that might make you loose your footing and slip that screwdriver across two alternating phases, or alternating legs of a single phase 180 degrees apart. I think it is more about that than it is about getting shocked.

 

[DeltaFarce]

This Delta Farce guy sounds pretty intelligent and cool, probably would be my best NJ friend if I didn't already have one, but I think he is missing a big point. The code wizards wanted a nice clear space in front of panels so you can get the hell away from it quick in a phase to phase short circuit event that might just burn your entire face off of you if you are up on a ladder, or sitting on top of a dryer, or some other obstruction that might make you loose your footing and slip that screwdriver across two alternating phases, or alternating legs of a single phase 180 degrees apart. I think it is more about that than it is about getting shocked.

My point has been that it doesn't matter what the code wizards want or what the NEC requires, homeowners aren't bound by it. See post #26 for more information.

 

[macmikeman]

My mistake, no way I was reading that many pages. But to counter, today Obamer signed EPA regulations to govern drainage ditches , and large puddles. Government can do any thing it jolly well pleases, and that includes making us move panels because a dryer space is located below the panel. When I was a kid and things were well done they couldn't do that. Now is different.

 

[mwm1752]

So according to the farce -- Just because a residence has roughin for specific appliances & purposes the Inspector should only apply the NEC for General recept spacing -- There may be a Range outlet in a big room but no need to look for countertop recepts cause they may not put a range in that space & make it a bedroom even though it says kitchen. Just because a toilet & shower drain is installed does not mean the owners will install them it could be a closet even though it says bathroom -- and just because you roughin for a washer & dryer with power, plumbing & venting in a laundry closet doesn't mean you will use that room as a laundrycloset.
He uses the assumption clause as a defense to his opinion but in reality, it is more of an assumption that a person wanting a roughin for a dryer(not required by code) would not use that space for a dryer. The OP clearly states it was marked as a laundry closet.
I have never disagreed with the role of authority after final inspection, the homeowner is free to make decisions within their home. Many times a final will have a blanked lighting outlet above a shower with the code required switched outlet installed elsewhere in the room. I will take a picture, make comment on compliant fixture only & move on. I have no liabilities in what may happen later as I have no control after final. The farce has made many statements of my interpretations being wrong & would take me to court, you must be a joy to work with as you must know it all.
Since he owns the electrical trade (his bio) may the farce be with you -- Certainly, the is no arguing a farce.

 

[petersonra]

If at the time of inspection there is no violation, how can you gig someone for that?

Anything can be changed after the inspection to be a violation, but it is not part of the inspector's job to prophecy what might happen down the road.

 

[mwm1752]

If at the time of inspection there is no violation, how can you gig someone for that?

Anything can be changed after the inspection to be a violation, but it is not part of the inspector's job to prophecy what might happen down the road.

What part is prophecy? saying that a location roughin electically, mechanically & plumbing is to be use for that purpose or it is not to be used for that purpose?

 

[petersonra]

What part is prophecy? saying that a location roughin electically, mechanically & plumbing is to be use for that purpose or it is not to be used for that purpose?

does not matter one iota what it is supposed to be used for or not supposed to be used for. it is what it is at the time of inspection that matters.

if the dryer is not there at time of inspection, it is not a violation just because someone might put a dryer there down the road. they might put a refrigerator there too. or a TV. or a chair. If putting a readily removable object in the working space is a violation, than any of those things would equally be a violation.

 

[tom baker]

You could always mount the panel on some kind of frame that extends above the dryer so that the front of the panel is in line with the front of the dryer.

But the area under the panel has to be kept clear for electrical access. 110.26 has two parts - access to the panel and access in and out of the panel.

 

[growler]

does not matter one iota what it is supposed to be used for or not supposed to be used for. it is what it is at the time of inspection that matters.

if the dryer is not there at time of inspection, it is not a violation just because someone might put a dryer there down the road. they might put a refrigerator there too. or a TV. or a chair. If putting a readily removable object in the working space is a violation, than any of those things would equally be a violation.

I don't know where you get your information but you are wrong. In many areas you would need to submit a set of plans for review before the permit is even issued and if you were to show a panel in the washer/dryer closet it would be flagged before the project even started. You don't get to put the panel behind the refrigerator in the kitchen either.

You don't need beds in the bedrooms for them to be designated as bedrooms. The tenant may not have anyone sleeping in there but it just doesn't matter.

In an apartment or a house you are not likely to see all appliances installed at the time of final inspection. You have shown and intent to put a washer/dryer in that area.

 

[DeltaFarce]

So according to the farce -- Just because a residence has roughin for specific appliances & purposes the Inspector should only apply the NEC for General recept spacing

No, that's not what I said. If the plans specify an appliance, then the AHJ should be judging based on that fact. The problem is when the AHJ makes assumptions. I was very clear about this, I think you are purposely twisting my words.

I didn't even read the rest of your post since it's based on a lie about what I have said and it also seemed to be insulting and childish.

 

[DeltaFarce]

But the area under the panel has to be kept clear for electrical access. 110.26 has two parts - access to the panel and access in and out of the panel.

Again, see post #26. The NEC does not have jurisdiction over the homeowner once the permit is closed.

It doesn't matter what 110.26 says, if the homeowner wants to put a huge pile of junk in front of their panel (or a fridge, or a dryer), they can. There is absolutely no way to stop them, they are not bound by the NEC.

 

[DeltaFarce]

I don't know where you get your information but you are wrong. In many areas you would need to submit a set of plans for review before the permit is even issued and if you were to show a panel in the washer/dryer closet it would be flagged before the project even started. You don't get to put the panel behind the refrigerator in the kitchen either.

Yes, but the discussion has changed from the OP's situation in which the plans specify something, to mwm1752's statement that he can fail a panel installation for the sole reason that a receptacle exists.

You don't need beds in the bedrooms for them to be designated as bedrooms. The tenant may not have anyone sleeping in there but it just doesn't matter.

There is a set of criteria that makes a bedroom a bedroom, it's not just an assumption. A room of a certain size with a closet and a certain size window for egress, for example. There are specs and facts to determine if a bedroom is a bedroom. The municipality will call an office a bedroom if it has a closet (and increase the property taxes) no matter what the homeowner says.

There is nothing like that for the laundry. You can't say for sure whether a certain place is going to be the laundry unless it is specified as such on the plans by the designer or owner. They are the ones who determine what the laundry is.

Like I said, I have a vent and dryer receptacle in my basement that isn't used because the laundry area was moved. And no inspector is going to tell me I can't put a panel in that area because a receptacle exists.

 

[growler]

There is no inspection or permits involved because it's an "existing " structure...but they want everything done to code( not slumlords) and will do whatever I tell them needs done. Just gonna have them move panel to other side of wall for ease of access at minimum , when I have to add more that they forgot.

Yes, but the discussion has changed from the OP's situation in which the plans specify something, to mwm1752's statement that he can fail a panel installation for the sole reason that a receptacle exists.

Actually the OP wants to know if his installtion will be code compliant. The short answer is "NO" because of working clearance.

There are not going to be any inspections so it wouldn't do any good to try and fool the inspector.

The inspection department does not have any jurisdiction once this permit is closed out or if they needed to get a permit.

But there is one thing that people don't consider. There is always next time. When another permit is needed an inspector would normally have reason to check out the panel and find this violation and may even consider it a safety hazard.

I have had to remove items from in front of panels before. Everything from duct work and pipes to an old time icecream cooler in a bar area. The area needs to be clear from floor to a height of 78" for head room ( not just in front of the panel). At a later date the homeowner can be made to move all of this stuff if another permit is ever required.

If Bob ever needs a permit for that panel located behind a refrigerator then he is in trouble because he will need to move it or the refrigerator.

 

[DeltaFarce]

But there is one thing that people don't consider. There is always next time. When another permit is needed an inspector would normally have reason to check out the panel and find this violation and may even consider it a safety hazard.

Do the inspectors in your state have the right to come into someone's home, even during an inspection of something else, and require a homeowner to move their personal property away from the panel?

 

[growler]

Do the inspectors in your state have the right to come into someone's home, even during an inspection of something else, and require a homeowner to move their personal property away from the panel?

No they don't, "but in most cases when you pull an electrical permit there is a reason for them to check the panel. If nothing else they may want to check breaker size for the circuit you are working on.

When an inspector spots a violation they do have the right to write it up ( if it's a safety hazard and that can be an opinion). Many just make a suggestion that something be moved.

It's much like when you get stopped for going 5 miles pr hour over the speed limit. A policeman won't always right up a ticket for speeding but he does have have that option.

Say you are installing a new AC condensor ( outside with non fused disconnect) and the inspector wants to check breaker size and finds a panel behind the refrigerator.

Now if you have a small fire in a bedroom (mostly smoke ) and the Fire Department is looking for a way to shut off power and they find the panel behind the refrigerator they will probably condemn the place. The Fire Marshal does have that power.

There are many reasons why service equipment should be accessable (readily accessable).

 

[DeltaFarce]

No they don't, "but in most cases when you pull an electrical permit there is a reason for them to check the panel. If nothing else they may want to check breaker size for the circuit you are working on.

So let's say Suzzie Homeowner has me install a new receptacle in her house and we pull a permit for it. During the inspection, she pulls the fridge (which normally sits directly in front of the panel) out into the center of the basement. It's clear that she would normally have the fridge in front of the panel.

The inspector can tell her that she can't have the fridge there, however, he can't do anything about it. The same way as how he can't tell her that she can't pile junk in front of her panel. Hell, many panels are in garages in which 3,000lb objects sit inside the working space. It's just the way it is, and the inspector has no authority to do anything about it.

When an inspector spots a violation they do have the right to write it up ( if it's a safety hazard and that can be an opinion).

Could they? I'm sure the law is different in every area, but here they can't just walk thru your house and start making the homeowner spend thousands or tens of thousands on electrical upgrades.

Think about a very big safety hazard, having a receptacle by the bathroom or kitchen sink without GFCI protection. Inspectors in areas like mine, where the average house was built 60+ years ago, see this every day. But they don't have the power to make homeowners upgrade when the permit was pulled for another small job in the house.

It's much like when you get stopped for going 5 miles pr hour over the speed limit. A policeman won't always right up a ticket for speeding but he does have have that option.

I feel this is a bad analogy because the cop has the authority to write you up for the ticket. Inspectors don't have the authority to make you bring your whole house up to code. When you pull a permit and call for an inspection, the inspection is on the permitted work, nothing else.

Say you are installing a new AC condensor ( outside with non fused disconnect) and the inspector wants to check breaker size and finds a panel behind the refrigerator.

He can't do anything about it other than to ask the homeowner to move it out of his way so he can look at the panel. Just like if it were a pile of cardboard boxes filled with typical junk.

Now if you have a small fire in a bedroom (mostly smoke ) and the Fire Department is looking for a way to shut off power and they find the panel behind the refrigerator they will probably condemn the place. The Fire Marshal does have that power.

I don't know where you are going with this, but please show me a house that was condemned because the electrical panel was behind a fridge. You can't be serious with this statement.

There are many reasons why service equipment should be accessable (readily accessable).

I agree completely, no one ever said it was a bad idea, it would make my job a LOT easier if I didn't have to dig thru junk every time I had to get to a panel to do work.

 

[mwm1752]

Yes, but the discussion has changed from the OP's situation in which the plans specify something, to mwm1752's statement that he can fail a panel installation for the sole reason that a receptacle exists.

You really need to read post -- mechanical, plumbing, electrical installs -- and I'm twisting your words

 

[edlee]

Do the inspectors in your state have the right to come into someone's home, even during an inspection of something else, and require a homeowner to move their personal property away from the panel?

Inspectors have the right to look, if the local fire chief or board of health asks them to investigate possible electrical hazards. It happens when renters get into a dispute with their landlord and call the BoH. It also happens when the fire department is called for a possible fire/CO/smoke problem and they are invited in. Or it can happen if they observe a violation while they are looking at something else. Or in other scenarios.

In Massachusetts the inspector's required response is to write a letter to the property owner citing the violation. Then the liability is on the property owner(or maybe tenant, I'm not a lawyer and am not certain). If the violation is one that threatens imminent hazard or death, then the electrical inspector can notify the fire chief and the fire chief can condemn the building on the spot and order the residents out.