Panel box above dryer legal or not

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DeltaFarce said:
No, that's not what I said. If the plans specify an appliance, then the AHJ should be judging based on that fact. The problem is when the AHJ makes assumptions. I was very clear about this, I think you are purposely twisting my words.

I didn't even read the rest of your post since it's based on a lie about what I have said and it also seemed to be insulting and childish.
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Where is the assumption if there is a dryer vent and power hookup/gas line?
 
DeltaFarce said:
I don't know where you are going with this, but please show me a house that was condemned because the electrical panel was behind a fridge. You can't be serious with this statement.
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I think I see what the problem is, when you think of a refrigerator blocking a panel you are thinking of an open area such as a basement or garage or even an open wall in a kitchen.

When I think of a panel being blocked by a refrigerator I think of it setting in a nook designed just for a refrigerator. It's a pretty tight fit, it may be a refrigerator/freezer ( common and heavy) and the tile of the kitchen may not extend to the wall where frig sits making it very hard to roll out.

Once we flout the rules for working clearance just where do we stop? Either there are rules or there are no rules.
 
edlee said:
Where is the assumption if there is a dryer vent and power hookup/gas line?
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The assumption is what you are doing when you say a dryer is going there.

I have a 240V receptacle on my wall by a window, does that mean a large AC unit has to go in that window? Because I have central air now :lol:

I have a single receptacle near a sump pit, but no pump. Does a pump have to go there?
 
edlee said:
Inspectors have the right to look, if the local fire chief or board of health asks them to investigate possible electrical hazards. It happens when renters get into a dispute with their landlord and call the BoH. It also happens when the fire department is called for a possible fire/CO/smoke problem and they are invited in. Or it can happen if they observe a violation while they are looking at something else. Or in other scenarios.

In Massachusetts the inspector's required response is to write a letter to the property owner citing the violation. Then the liability is on the property owner(or maybe tenant, I'm not a lawyer and am not certain). If the violation is one that threatens imminent hazard or death, then the electrical inspector can notify the fire chief and the fire chief can condemn the building on the spot and order the residents out.
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You are talking about rental properties which is a completely different discussion altogether.
 
growler said:
I think I see what the problem is, when you think of a refrigerator blocking a panel you are thinking of an open area such as a basement or garage or even an open wall in a kitchen.

When I think of a panel being blocked by a refrigerator I think of it setting in a nook designed just for a refrigerator. It's a pretty tight fit, it may be a refrigerator/freezer ( common and heavy) and the tile of the kitchen may not extend to the wall where frig sits making it very hard to roll out.

Once we flout the rules for working clearance just where do we stop? Either there are rules or there are no rules.
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So you are not going to cite an instance in which a house was condemned because the panel was behind a fridge?

That's what you said, you said "they find the panel behind the refrigerator they will probably condemn the place."

I don't care if it's in a nook or not, I want to see a fire department condemn a house because a fridge was in front of the panel.
 
DeltaFarce said:
I've heard these stories before. But in reality, out of all the times I have been shocked (including twice this week), I have never not been able to let go. I have also never had to fall to break myself from whatever I was touching that shocked me. Could someone get stuck and require a fall to break it? Sure. But to say that it is going to happen and to have code require free space to allow it to happen is pretty crazy.

When I see or hear people saying these types of things, I see it as being the same jobsite rumors that say getting shocked from a neutral hurts more, or that a pullbox is required every 100 foot of a pipe run, or that you can't splice in panels. Just jobsite gossip based off of inaccuracies.
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To be fair, once someone has hooked up hard enough that they can't let go, they generaly don't go talking about it. I don't know why that is exactly but my thinking is that it's because they are dead.
 
I kinda lost interest in this thread, but I wouldn't mind meeting this Suzie Homemaker broad. I wanna straighten her out real good for putting the fridge in front of the panel.
 
growler said:
So you really don't see the danger of sitting on a dryer (with frame grounded) and working on a live panel?

The reason that you haven't been killed is because you have not been well grounded when you touch 120V live.
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It isn't an issue of whether one can see danger. I totally agree with you that, as an electrician, I wouldn't want to come upon a panel mounted behind a dryer, but a dryer at least one that isn't bolted in to place for seismic purposes is able to be moved without tools so, the code section you cited doesn't prohibit it.

I would not use my license to install a panel behind a location I knew a dryer was intended to go, or at least, I would require the person requesting it to direct me in writing with acknowledgment that I recommend against it, but that doesn't make it illegal.
 
DeltaFarce said:
So let's say Suzzie Homeowner has me install a new receptacle in her house and we pull a permit for it. During the inspection, she pulls the fridge (which normally sits directly in front of the panel) out into the center of the basement. It's clear that she would normally have the fridge in front of the panel.

The inspector can tell her that she can't have the fridge there, however, he can't do anything about it. The same way as how he can't tell her that she can't pile junk in front of her panel. Hell, many panels are in garages in which 3,000lb objects sit inside the working space. It's just the way it is, and the inspector has no authority to do anything about it.

Could they? I'm sure the law is different in every area, but here they can't just walk thru your house and start making the homeowner spend thousands or tens of thousands on electrical upgrades.

Think about a very big safety hazard, having a receptacle by the bathroom or kitchen sink without GFCI protection. Inspectors in areas like mine, where the average house was built 60+ years ago, see this every day. But they don't have the power to make homeowners upgrade when the permit was pulled for another small job in the house.

I feel this is a bad analogy because the cop has the authority to write you up for the ticket. Inspectors don't have the authority to make you bring your whole house up to code. When you pull a permit and call for an inspection, the inspection is on the permitted work, nothing else.

He can't do anything about it other than to ask the homeowner to move it out of his way so he can look at the panel. Just like if it were a pile of cardboard boxes filled with typical junk.

I don't know where you are going with this, but please show me a house that was condemned because the electrical panel was behind a fridge. You can't be serious with this statement.


I agree completely, no one ever said it was a bad idea, it would make my job a LOT easier if I didn't have to dig thru junk every time I had to get to a panel to do work.
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Inspector has the authority here to order POCO to disconnect the service if he sees something that is a hazard. There can be dispute over just how much of a hazard it may need to be before he can do so. When it comes to such disputes how dead does one need to be before we can say it was a serious hazard that caused the death? We can have items in front of the panel and still have someone electrocuted by something not related one bit to clearance in front of the panel, but rather because they didn't feel it was important to shut off the circuit they were working on (but maybe they didn't shut it off because they couldn't easily get to the panel):blink:

You maybe don't see it as often in owner occupied dwellings, but you do see insurance, department of Labor, OSHA, etc. enforce such rules at places of work or where general public may be effected by such hazards.


Just having electric power in the house does mean we have some hazard on some level doesn't it?
 
DeltaFarce said:
So let's say Suzzie Homeowner has me install a new receptacle in her house and we pull a permit for it. During the inspection, she pulls the fridge (which normally sits directly in front of the panel) out into the center of the basement. It's clear that she would normally have the fridge in front of the panel.
I would probably tell Suzzie Q, Ya know there is a six foot cord on this thing why don't you slide it down the wall 18". I'm assuming there has not been a complete kitchen with counertops built in the basement without any prior inspections for new circuits, plumbing, & venting for ranges.

The inspector can tell her that she can't have the fridge there, however, he can't do anything about it. The same way as how he can't tell her that she can't pile junk in front of her panel. Hell, many panels are in garages in which 3,000lb objects sit inside the working space. It's just the way it is, and the inspector has no authority to do anything about it.
I could certainly tell he clearances to the panel are important and Ya know there is a six foot cored on this thing why don't you slide it down the wall 18". Take the appropriate pic
& go to the next inspection, now Suzzie Q may just say screw that guy & put the frig back which I would have no control over.

Could they? I'm sure the law is different in every area, but here they can't just walk thru your house and start making the homeowner spend thousands or tens of thousands on electrical upgrades.
You are correct, without permission to enter a house that does not show emminent danger I would not enter.

Think about a very big safety hazard, having a receptacle by the bathroom or kitchen sink without GFCI protection. Inspectors in areas like mine, where the average house was built 60+ years ago, see this every day. But they don't have the power to make homeowners upgrade when the permit was pulled for another small job in the house.
If the pervious installation was per the code at the time and does not create a hazard there is no reason to require an upgrade. Would you require GFCI protection for bathrooms & kitchens that are not part of the remodel ?"Think about a very big safety hazard" your words. I would not have the authority to do so.

I feel this is a bad analogy because the cop has the authority to write you up for the ticket. Inspectors don't have the authority to make you bring your whole house up to code. When you pull a permit and call for an inspection, the inspection is on the permitted work, nothing else.
That is the premise of most inspections, still emminet danger signs are not to be ignored.

He can't do anything about it other than to ask the homeowner to move it out of his way so he can look at the panel. Just like if it were a pile of cardboard boxes filled with typical junk.
Per your example

I don't know where you are going with this, but please show me a house that was condemned because the electrical panel was behind a fridge. You can't be serious with this statement.
Thats just silly, but then again I am not the fire marshall & usually the disconnect the main
I agree completely, no one ever said it was a bad idea, it would make my job a LOT easier if I didn't have to dig thru junk every time I had to get to a panel to do work.
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Funny, most would agree it is a required code and a good idea. But I'm not talking about cardboard boxes or brooms
 
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panel over dryer

panel over dryer

sweetcav said:
I am working on a renovation and rewire of two apartments. The gc has provided a new floor plan and asked me to look over it for any code issues. The big one I saw was the new floor plan has the panel box in the washer dryer closet, I asked him about it and he said just put it high enough the dryer doesn't cover it. Told him I have to check into it, just checking my self to make sure I am right before I tell him we need to move it to other side of wall
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You do not have panel clearance ! 3 ft in front and 30" min on wall space. this clearance encompasses the entire space in front from floor to ceiling NEC 08 see 110.26
 
DeltaFarce said:
My dryer vent does stick out past the wall, but not as far as the 2x4, the 3/4" plywood, and the 4" deep panel sticks out :lol:

Is there a fishing smilie here?? :p
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But... as my rant recently points out. This falls under the dedicated equipment space rule 110.26(E) and is a 100% violation. No grey area
 
After reading this thread, I have one question:

Has anyone argued with an inspector that, just because there are hookups for dryer in front of panel, does not necessarily mean that there will be a dryer there, and won that argument?
 
ron allen said:
You do not have panel clearance ! 3 ft in front and 30" min on wall space. this clearance encompasses the entire space in front from floor to ceiling NEC 08 see 110.26
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Maybe you need to read it as well, (A)(3) says the height of the work space shall be 6-1/2 feet or height of equipment, whichever is greater. Plus (A)(1) does have some conditions where more then 3 feet in front is required. 30" is minimum width or if equipment is wider than that then whatever equipment width is your minimum in those cases.;)
 
Fulthrotl said:
i had a 2' x 2' x 18" deep j box under a panel, and had to
move the panel out from the wall so the face of the panel
was flush with the front of the j box.
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stickboy1375 said:
The panel didn't have to be flush, but the j-box below can't extend more than 6" beyond the front of the panel.

110.26 (A)(3)
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Correct, but he did say his box in question was 18" deep, so there is a good chance something needed changed anyway.;)
 
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