Pentair Pool Pump GFCI trips

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Jraef said:
s, but still above that 6mA threshold, if your GFCI is not discriminating out high frequency current (this is not shown, but is likely in the 150MHz range).
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wrap the EGC 6-7 turns through a ferrite ring. @150MHz just a little choke and ferrite should make it look like a MΩ ckt and should bring amps down to zilch. try sticking the primary winding of a old xfrmer inline with EGC to see if the tripping stops.
 
so, many posts about some possible solutions. which ones have been tried? or will this just be like finding the solution in diff-eq but never applying any of those answers :)
 
There's a pretty good chance ill run into another vs pump issue this month...looking forward to it. I haven't picked up the ferrites yet and need a more sensitive clamp but I have shared this forum with a big customer of our who only uses Pentair equip and a vs pump on each job. Last months big one had 5 vs pumps out of 7 total but all are on Siemens GFCIs in the control system enclosures.

We use QO equip when no control system is supplied and that's when I sometimes run into problems. We have several jobs like that underway now.

Also see a lot of builder supplied Eaton panels and the CHCH and CHBR GFCIs trip with Pentair vs pump almost everytime. Just finished 2 jobs with them but sold the 2 pole Siemens disc. for the GFCIs.

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FionaZuppa said:
wrap the EGC 6-7 turns through a ferrite ring. @150MHz just a little choke and ferrite should make it look like a MΩ ckt and should bring amps down to zilch. try sticking the primary winding of a old xfrmer inline with EGC to see if the tripping stops.
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Adding impedance to the EGC takes some away from the purpose we run an EGC though.
 
Adding impedance to 150MHz means nothing to a gf at 60Hz. I don't see anywhere that NEC specifies an impedance test. I don't even think there is NEC code that specifies ohms like it does for grounding electrode.
 
FionaZuppa said:
Adding impedance to 150MHz means nothing to a gf at 60Hz. I don't see anywhere that NEC specifies an impedance test. I don't even think there is NEC code that specifies ohms like it does for grounding electrode.
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It may not effect a ground fault at 60Hz but if the homeowner were to sell their home it could definitely come up as an issue upon inspection if seen....Which could possibly create an issue on selling their property.
 
Mustwin351 said:
It may not effect a ground fault at 60Hz but if the homeowner were to sell their home it could definitely come up as an issue upon inspection if seen....Which could possibly create an issue on selling their property.
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Do you honestly think the average home inspector would even know what they're looking at when looking at a ferrite choke on the EGC? It'd be like a dog looking at a football...



SeneryDriver
 
Mustwin351 said:
It may not effect a ground fault at 60Hz but if the homeowner were to sell their home it could definitely come up as an issue upon inspection if seen....Which could possibly create an issue on selling their property.
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A few wraps of the egc around a ferrite ring is not questionable in NEC realm, the NEC does not ban it, and at DC out to 60Hz the wrap does not impact the function of egc. If it's a issue at sell time, unwrap the egc.
"What the heck is that"? It's a RF filter ;)
 
SceneryDriver said:
Do you honestly think the average home inspector would even know what they're looking at when looking at a ferrite choke on the EGC? It'd be like a dog looking at a football...



SeneryDriver
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Hah, made me laugh. Not even sure the HI's know what to look for, let alone looking at egc's. Perhaps just tag it, "RF filter, do not remove".
 
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I just got done with a bonkers RF interference issue:

The company I work for recently built an outdoor entertainment venue for the top deck of a cruise ship. Our portion included all the venue lighting, all of which was DMX controlled, and dimmable. Turns out some of the lighting fixtures (which are FCC Part 15 listed, by the way) generated so much RF hash when dimming, that it knocked out reception on one of the ship's satellite safety communications systems. Apparently, no one ever thought to test spec-grade architectural lighting components near marine satellite COMs gear. :p

It took two trips to the ship with a rented spectrum analyzer, and two different sets of RF chokes applied to each fixture tail right where it exits the fixture (there are 150+ fixtures in the venue) to reduce the RF noise to acceptable levels.

I can attest that ferrite chokes work, and work well, but you need to know the frequency (and possible harmonics) of the noise being generated in order to appropriately select the proper type of ferrite. The formula for the ferrite differs, based on the frequency of the noise you're trying to squash. You might get lucky throwing a random ferrite on the EGC, but most likely it'll help, but maybe not enough. Get a scope meter or spectrum analyzer in order to find out where the noise is on the spectrum, and select your choke(s) appropriately.


SceneryDriver
 
SceneryDriver has it right, just not sure it's available. I think fluke has handheld scope with fft that should cover the noise from a vfd controlled pool pump. But ok, skip the ferrite for now, test with only a decently sized choke inline, like the primary winding of a old xfrmer. You can't leave like this permanently, but it's a good test. The RF here is not bleeding off into the air and impacting other electronics, it may be causing mA on the egc.
 
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Oh man...6-7 turns of a 12 gauge THHN through a ferrite...gonna have to be a pretty big one.

The reality of it all is this...by the time the customer finally gets the #$@%@%# pool done and the waters circulating with the deck jets and waterfalls on and the #%@$#^& ciruit breaker keeps tripping, their screaming and have no patience to hear that some fricken thingy with the green wire wrapped all around it may or may not fix it.

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FionaZuppa said:
SceneryDriver has it right, just not sure it's available. I think fluke has handheld scope with fft that should cover the noise from a vfd controlled pool pump. But ok, skip the ferrite for now, test with only a decently sized choke inline, like the primary winding of a old xfrmer. You can't leave like this permanently, but it's a good test. The RF here is not bleeding off into the air and impacting other electronics, it may be causing mA on the egc.
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The owner of one of the companies we work for has a few of the replacement CHBR GFCIs Eaton sent me which were supposed to be better designed to help with the pump issue. They''ve been tripping and he asked me to send a guy to swap em with the Siemens. I'll talk to him, I think he has 2 vs pumps. If so, I can try the ferrites on one and the xf on the other. His pool is long passed finals.

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SceneryDriver said:
Do you honestly think the average home inspector would even know what they're looking at when looking at a ferrite choke on the EGC? It'd be like a dog looking at a football...



SeneryDriver
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I was actually referring to this part of the suggestion "try sticking the primary winding of a old xfrmer inline with EGC to see if the tripping stops."
 
Mustwin351 said:
I was actually referring to this part of the suggestion "try sticking the primary winding of a old xfrmer inline with EGC to see if the tripping stops."
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like many news reporters, out of context. its a cheap choke, as a test, to help fix the problem.

or, buy a damn scope, a proper one (~ Fluke 190 200MHz), scope it, then take action. $1 vs ~$4500, its up to the OP.
or maybe spend a few hundred $$ for a service that has a scope to come take a look. $1 vs ~$200, its up to the OP.

the pump VFD noise is likely not MHz, i bet ya its way less, low kHz or less. larger diameter ferrite rings are ~$3, wrapping some turns of #12 is ez.

there's about 4-5 things to try and/or check-out. once the solution is known, the OP will be the goto guy for his area for all pump tripping issues ;)
 
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Sorry for asking the obvious question here, but why the h%*l do we have to jury rig up chokes or coils to get this thing to work? Pentair is a huge company. They've got 27000 employees. They own a ton of brands that you've likely heard of, and they're the premier supplier of residential pool pumps and equipment. How is it possible that Pentair can't deliver a product that can't be installed to NEC code without a $4k scope and a EE degree? And it's not like these pumps just came out in March either. They've been selling them for years.

It all seems crazy

sorry sorry for the rant...
 
rszimm said:
Sorry for asking the obvious question here, but why the h%*l do we have to jury rig up chokes or coils to get this thing to work? Pentair is a huge company. They've got 27000 employees. They own a ton of brands that you've likely heard of, and they're the premier supplier of residential pool pumps and equipment. How is it possible that Pentair can't deliver a product that can't be installed to NEC code without a $4k scope and a EE degree? And it's not like these pumps just came out in March either. They've been selling them for years.

It all seems crazy

sorry sorry for the rant...
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maybe gfci internals have changed over time and the issue has just now become a common nuisance?

but agree, what does Pentair say, can they provide a solution?

adding a ferrite ring filter to EGC wire is not jury rig, its a filtering solution to fix a problem.
 
FionaZuppa said:
adding a ferrite ring filter to EGC wire is not jury rig, its a filtering solution to fix a problem.
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So is Pentair making modifications to their product so it is compatible with most GFCI's without other field modifications being necessary.
 
Im not the op and I don't have all the answers to the recently posted questions but I know this:

It's Pentairs problem and I don't think their addressing it. This is 5+ years now Ive been dealing with it but it seems to be more frequent now. Probably due to the POCO and Pentair rebates being offered to use the vs pumps.

Pentair has Siemens make a breaker for them sold only through pool suppliers. The VS pump manual mentions the following in a side bar

" Pentair offers 2-Pole 20 Amp GFCI breakers
(P/N PA220GF) which offer 6 milliamp personnel
protection while meeting 2008 to current NEC
Standards for Pool Pumps.

The thing is, it is a type PGF breaker can't be used unless there is a Pentair panel approved for using type PGF breakers.

The pumps trip Eaton CHBR and CHCH GFCIs almost everytime and If a ferrite ring can RELIABLY prevent the GFCIs from nuscance tripping , I think this is all valuable time spent and good for all to know.

The transformer on the EGG wont pass a final but I'm curious to know if it would work.

I have the guy on board with using his vs spa pump as the testing ground. He says it trips every time he turns it on. Hopefully it will trip when I stop by to replace the EGC and install the ferrite.

If the ferrite works, I'll likely be done with messing with it. If not, I'll try the xf.


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