Pentair Pool Pump GFCI trips

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just to note, if its bare wire make sure the ferrite is insulated, or stretch some electrical tape over/on it so that the copper cant short to the ferrite, and dont let the coils touch each other. if its insulated (which it should be) then wrap as many times as you can. not sure if you are trying a ring or just a clamp on.

the xfrmr is just a decently sized choke with some form of iron core.

i find it interesting that Pentair puts their electronics right on top of the motor frame, lots of magnetism going on in that area, and it is possible to impose a current in wires that can be seen as a imbalance to gfi.

anyways, lets see if a ferrite or choke stops the issue.
 
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FionaZuppa said:
i find it interesting that Pentair puts their electronics right on top of the motor frame, lots of magnetism going on in that area, and it is possible to impose a current in wires that can be seen as a imbalance to gfi.
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Where does that current have to go that isn't part of the circuit that the GFCI is monitoring?

Capacitive leakage is about all that would imbalance the GFCI.
 
kwired said:
Where does that current have to go that isn't part of the circuit that the GFCI is monitoring?

Capacitive leakage is about all that would imbalance the GFCI.
Click to expand...

one example, as the motor does start up the inrush current in the motor windings creates a mag field that cuts across the/a Line and GND wires. Mag fields cutting across wires induces a voltage, and if there is a path, amps.
 
FionaZuppa said:
one example, as the motor does start up the inrush current in the motor windings creates a mag field that cuts across the/a Line and GND wires. Mag fields cutting across wires induces a voltage, and if there is a path, amps.
Click to expand...
The only way that causes an imbalance that would trip a GFCI is if you capacitively coupled to a conductor that is not part of the GFCI protected circuit, including the EGC. There is usually not enough capacitance to draw enough current to trip a GFCI unless you are dealing with a long circuit back to the GFCI, or have other "branches" on the same circuit to contribute to total capacitive coupling effect.

Current induced into other conductors via induction effects is like having a transformer in the circuit, the GFCI protected circuit is the primary winding- what goes out on L1 comes back on L2 and the GFCI is ok with that. The circuit with induced current on it is the secondary winding, if there is no complete circuit you won't have secondary current, there is no current moving from primary to secondary either.
 
there is a hard path. egc is tied to N in panel, through service xfrmr coil, back onto the line of the gfi. that path is a imbalance to gfi.
but, the xfrmer coil would be high Z for 150Hz, but low Z to low freq.


one test is to take egc off the pump.
 
FionaZuppa said:
there is a hard path. egc is tied to N in panel, through service xfrmr coil, back onto the line of the gfi. that path is a imbalance to gfi.
but, the xfrmer coil would be high Z for 150MHz, but low Z to low freq.


one test is to take egc off the pump.
Click to expand...
MHz, not Hz. corrected.
 
FionaZuppa said:
there is a hard path. egc is tied to N in panel, through service xfrmr coil, back onto the line of the gfi. that path is a imbalance to gfi.
but, the xfrmer coil would be high Z for 150Hz, but low Z to low freq.


one test is to take egc off the pump.
Click to expand...
capacitive coupled current would flow back on EGC and eventually to the grounded conductor at the source. Inductive coupled current will only flow in a complete circuit on the "secondary side", you essentially have a mini separately derived system. even if both primary and secondary have a grounded conductor - you still need a path back to an ungrounded secondary conductor to have current in the secondary.
 
It's a known issue..... I had to switch to the Siemens breakers instead of SqD; intellitouch panels are listed for both.


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kwired said:
capacitive coupled current would flow back on EGC and eventually to the grounded conductor at the source. Inductive coupled current will only flow in a complete circuit on the "secondary side", you essentially have a mini separately derived system. even if both primary and secondary have a grounded conductor - you still need a path back to an ungrounded secondary conductor to have current in the secondary.
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are you talking about motor winding? i am not looking at motor windings.
the pink arrows are induced current across L and EGC, which is a imbalance to gfi. what's in the VFD controls that would allow such? i dunno, but a path is there (maybe).
pic just as example

mag-field.jpg
 
FionaZuppa said:
are you talking about motor winding? i am not looking at motor windings.
the pink arrows are induced current across L and EGC, which is a imbalance to gfi. what's in the VFD controls that would allow such? i dunno, but a path is there (maybe).
pic just as example

mag-field.jpg
Click to expand...

FionaZuppa said:
one example, as the motor does start up the inrush current in the motor windings creates a mag field that cuts across the/a Line and GND wires. Mag fields cutting across wires induces a voltage, and if there is a path, amps.
Click to expand...

Looked like you were to me.

The drive I agree has multiple things that can create issues with a GFCI.
 
It's interesting to me all these issues with the Pentair pumps.I have not experienced this. I am a Jandy dealer, and have had no trouble with their VS Pumps. Plug-n-play. The RS systems allow us to program the VS pumps.


I'm a member on a swimming pool forum and most of the members use the Pentair pumps and they love them. Not one has mentioned any of the issues stated that has obviously been experienced my members here. I'm surprised.

However, I'm not surprised too much with manufacturers as they want to get their product to market quickly and deal with issues afterward.

I'm interested in seeing what becomes of the Pentair issues.
 
Mystic Pools said:
It's interesting to me all these issues with the Pentair pumps.I have not experienced this. I am a Jandy dealer, and have had no trouble with their VS Pumps. Plug-n-play. The RS systems allow us to program the VS pumps.


I'm a member on a swimming pool forum and most of the members use the Pentair pumps and they love them. Not one has mentioned any of the issues stated that has obviously been experienced my members here. I'm surprised.

However, I'm not surprised too much with manufacturers as they want to get their product to market quickly and deal with issues afterward.

I'm interested in seeing what becomes of the Pentair issues.
Click to expand...

Any experience with Hayward? I have all Hayward equipment on my pool and my pool guy is suggesting going VS.
 
Mystic Pools said:
Not one has mentioned any of the issues stated that has obviously been experienced my members here. I'm surprised.............
I'm interested in seeing what becomes of the Pentair issues.
Click to expand...

The deal with the breakers started about two years ago; y'all had a lot of pumps tripping on the square d breakers I was using. Pentair was well aware of it and recommended switching everything to Siemens.



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Have not used Hayward products in decades. They kinda are lagging in the VS pump department. Jandy and Penetiar have been the top.
 
So about the ferrites...no I have not tried them but called Siemens and explained the issues. They have opened service inquiry for this.

A builder I had cc'd on the emails with Siemens cc'd the East Coast Pentair folks in the email and their feelings were hurt.

I have got both parties to state that there is no difference in the Siemens QPF and the Pentair PGF circuit breakers.

Pentair is now saying the Intermatic PX100 and PX300 are know to cause gfis to trip. They are suggesting use of the Pentair 100 and 300 watt transformers...go figure

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The pumps don't trip consistantly but as soon as I get one that does, I'll be there with a Fluke 368, a Hubble GFT2, the ferrites and brand new Siemens, Pentair, Homeline, and Eaton BR GFCI breakers.

I also send the new TSB Pentair just released that point the finger at everything but the pump.

Mystic Pools, what Pool forum are you on?

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