LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
That's $810 for a 3,000 sq.ft. house! To split! $405 per guy! Not I!Joe Villani said:
Piece Rates
- Thread starter SoCalElectricalContractor
- Start date
- Status
jmsbrush
Senior Member
- Location
- Central Florida
What about you're custom houses? On you're 4500 square foot house, I do not see how how you could do it it for $7000.00. I just did a custom house 4000 sq for $13,700 . I don't even see how that covers material. I also would like to see what kind of work you're guys are doing. Are the wire's nice and neat and stabled every 4' ? Are they going every which way and look sloppy.I'm just asking?
LLSolutions
Senior Member
- Location
- Long Island, NY
4 things in a price
material- you said you can't cut it down
overhead- you said you can't cut that down
labor- like anything else you get what you pay for
profit- you seem to leave this untouched
you said,
"you should pay people what they are worth cause that is fair."
Sorry but that is foolish. the world doesn't work that way. It is a supply and demand world and price rules all. "
Maybe california just doesn't demand what you supply?
material- you said you can't cut it down
overhead- you said you can't cut that down
labor- like anything else you get what you pay for
profit- you seem to leave this untouched
you said,
"you should pay people what they are worth cause that is fair."
Sorry but that is foolish. the world doesn't work that way. It is a supply and demand world and price rules all. "
Maybe california just doesn't demand what you supply?
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
LarryFine said:
But, If you do 250 of them a year you can make a hunderd grand. I think they put the money in your coffen ( to bad it's a check ).
sd4524
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Any idea what you are paying your guys HOURLY? Obviously a rough estimate because people work at different paces.This might generate more response because many electricians/ owners haven't been exposed to piece work. Are journeyman or apprentices doing this work? I work w/ 2 apprentices who used to do tracks when the boom was happening and they miss those days. Now they make 16-18 hr and don't do as well. The journeyman I work with who make 23-26 hr seem to appreciate the hourly rate and don't miss the piecework.
LLSolutions
Senior Member
- Location
- Long Island, NY
I pay hourly rates but if you could break down a house labor wise i'd be really curious to see how each guy makes out. I'm not knocking piece work pricing just wondering how the average journeyman makes out. I'll leave "Average" up to you.
ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
LLSolutions said:
LL has said it price rules.
What I would like to know is
1 Do you pay .23sqft per man?
2 How many do you have doing one house?
3 Do they go back and trouble shoot any problems ie: find covered up boxes, three way miss wired ect.
4 What would be a "fair" hourly wage for some one doing the same work?
If you have 4 people doing a 4500sqft and they do it in 40 hrs it works out to $25.88 per hr per man. In my area that would be high for some one that would not have any responsibility for lay out, dealing with GC, trouble shooting.
The same 4500sqft in my area would be around .13 to 16 per sqft IF you could find some one to work that way.
Buck Parrish
Senior Member
- Location
- NC & IN
NC was having a problem with the quality of work with piece workers.
The State Board sent a newsletter that said every body's employees had to be a "Bonafied Employee" an employee that has w-4 and w-2 taxes taken out. Not 10-99.
The State Board sent a newsletter that said every body's employees had to be a "Bonafied Employee" an employee that has w-4 and w-2 taxes taken out. Not 10-99.
sparky 134
Senior Member
- Location
- Joliet, IL
I've never heard of anyone in my area doing piece work. Every electrician I know is paid hourly.
I'm glad I didn't have all of my eggs in the residential market. We do residential but I know for a fact there are guys out there who will do the same job for a lot less than I.
SoCal, you sound a bit angry. Instead of asking a group of anonymous people on a website why not talk with other contractors in your area ? They would have a better grasp of what electrician's in your area should be making.
I'm glad I didn't have all of my eggs in the residential market. We do residential but I know for a fact there are guys out there who will do the same job for a lot less than I.
SoCal, you sound a bit angry. Instead of asking a group of anonymous people on a website why not talk with other contractors in your area ? They would have a better grasp of what electrician's in your area should be making.
ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
buckofdurham said:
I agree with having problems with quality paying by piece work.
You can pay piece work as long as that amount doesnt fall below minimum wage. $6.15 * 40= $246.00 and then you do the normal withholding and w-2 at the year end they are a Bona fide Employee. So you could pay some one 0.06 per sqft on a 4500 house and be legal as long as they did not work over 40 hrs in one week.
I would hate to see a house wired for $0.06. Bowl of spaghetti gone bad
tyha
Senior Member
- Location
- central nc
ceb58 said:
You better not find anyone in our area that will do it that way because here in nc unlike cali its illegal. Just my opinion but I dont think this guy is the owner of one of the largest resi ec's in southern cali. just my opinion, dont get offended but I am an owner of a commercial ec and Im no where near the largest anything in my area and i dont see how a person with enough business acumen to build a succesfull company would have these sort of issues without an answer.
There aren't any guys here to give any information on piece rates for new residential. The guys that could give you that information are under-employed & in a state of disabling depression. Maybe the winning sub is throwing an envelope of cash at the general & gained his everlasting loyalty. Maybe the winning sub is losing money & will be out of business, followed by another sub losing money. Drop 5% & you can lose money too.
Dave
Dave
bikeindy
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis IN
SoCalElectricalContractor said:
I could get more than that here in Indiana with no problem and our houses don't cost what your do. You like working for free?
bikeindy
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis IN
SoCalElectricalContractor said:
I think I know your problem. you have been working for free for years and didn't know it. Lots of guys like you here have had the bank liquidate them. Your labor cost is not your problem. Your price and the sector of the industry that you have sold yourself out too has left you high and dry. I am glad to see this happening, when the market recovers maybe EC's will start getting paid to wire homes. Maybe you need some commercial electricians and some service guys, you know broaden your horizons some.
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bikeindy
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis IN
deleted duplicate
Last edited:
Quote: "Is the reason I am losing work, because my COSTS are too high (i.e. labor costs)?"
Sounds more like another EC is:
A. Underbidding
B. Not meeting EC / business requirements (insurance, license, taxes, paying cash, etc)
C. Steeling material
D. Performing less than code requirements
E. Looking to make it up on extras
For labor costs are you paying payroll taxes, unemployment insurance, and workers comp or are they 1099 independant contractors?
******************************
Originally Posted by SoCalElectricalContractor
Our total bid on a 4500 sq. ft. tract house would be around 7K.
The problem is, i am losing jobs by 5%
So you are $350 higher then the winning bidder on a 4500 sf home?
Your bidding $7000
Your payroll would be $1575 (without any taxes & etc if you pay them)
Payroll would be a bit over 25% of the bid amount
If you have any history with the builder/GC I would think you have a chance of using sales skills to work past the $350 difference. Give em a few more cans for your $7K bid. It's not like it would cost you any more in labor the way you pay your workers.
*******************************************
Quote:
"I have analyzed my costs already. I already took away some benefits that all of my employees had prior. I have the minimal office staff necessary to do the work that we do. I do have more work than I am making it out to be, i just don't understand how people are going to do work for what they are willing to currently. So, I am doing some investigating as to how they are. If they pay a whole bunch less than I in labor, that is a good reason why they could be a few hundred dollars a house cheaper. "
What benifits did you provide before, that you took away?
What do you provide for employees?
Such as workers comp insurance, unemployment insurance, truck, tools, holiday or vacation pay?
Who pays to fix mistakes, code corrections, and call backs?
How many employees do you have in the field and how many in the office?
How much does your average guy take home at 0.35 and what is the lowest for a full week?
My sugestion is to never lower a workers wage. Let them go if you can find the work to pay them.
Do you believe you can find others to work for the $0.28 / SF like your competitor and have finished house you could put you name on?
You would have to find workers for $0.27 / SF to take $360 off you labor on the bid.
Have you noticed they took off the cents symboll from the keyboard a long time ago? Think it's because it has so little value. I see in California the min wage is $8.00 per hour. That's $0.133 per minuite or $0.011 per second at min wage.
At $0.35 a person would have to rough and trim about 24 sq/ft (about a small bathroom size) to buy 2 gallons of fuel to get to work.
At min wage and 45 hrs / week they should get $400 per week min working at any job. Most figure working construction pays better than a fast food place because of the increased injury risk, sparatic work at times, harder phisically, and requires skill and training. For that reason I would think the smarter workers would just hang their tool belt up and work any temp job for $8-10 / hr while others would just do a few side jobs per week.
Sounds more like another EC is:
A. Underbidding
B. Not meeting EC / business requirements (insurance, license, taxes, paying cash, etc)
C. Steeling material
D. Performing less than code requirements
E. Looking to make it up on extras
For labor costs are you paying payroll taxes, unemployment insurance, and workers comp or are they 1099 independant contractors?
******************************
Originally Posted by SoCalElectricalContractor
Our total bid on a 4500 sq. ft. tract house would be around 7K.
The problem is, i am losing jobs by 5%
So you are $350 higher then the winning bidder on a 4500 sf home?
Your bidding $7000
Your payroll would be $1575 (without any taxes & etc if you pay them)
Payroll would be a bit over 25% of the bid amount
If you have any history with the builder/GC I would think you have a chance of using sales skills to work past the $350 difference. Give em a few more cans for your $7K bid. It's not like it would cost you any more in labor the way you pay your workers.
*******************************************
Quote:
"I have analyzed my costs already. I already took away some benefits that all of my employees had prior. I have the minimal office staff necessary to do the work that we do. I do have more work than I am making it out to be, i just don't understand how people are going to do work for what they are willing to currently. So, I am doing some investigating as to how they are. If they pay a whole bunch less than I in labor, that is a good reason why they could be a few hundred dollars a house cheaper. "
What benifits did you provide before, that you took away?
What do you provide for employees?
Such as workers comp insurance, unemployment insurance, truck, tools, holiday or vacation pay?
Who pays to fix mistakes, code corrections, and call backs?
How many employees do you have in the field and how many in the office?
How much does your average guy take home at 0.35 and what is the lowest for a full week?
My sugestion is to never lower a workers wage. Let them go if you can find the work to pay them.
Do you believe you can find others to work for the $0.28 / SF like your competitor and have finished house you could put you name on?
You would have to find workers for $0.27 / SF to take $360 off you labor on the bid.
Have you noticed they took off the cents symboll from the keyboard a long time ago? Think it's because it has so little value. I see in California the min wage is $8.00 per hour. That's $0.133 per minuite or $0.011 per second at min wage.
At $0.35 a person would have to rough and trim about 24 sq/ft (about a small bathroom size) to buy 2 gallons of fuel to get to work.
At min wage and 45 hrs / week they should get $400 per week min working at any job. Most figure working construction pays better than a fast food place because of the increased injury risk, sparatic work at times, harder phisically, and requires skill and training. For that reason I would think the smarter workers would just hang their tool belt up and work any temp job for $8-10 / hr while others would just do a few side jobs per week.
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
The confusion is you start with a piece price post then you give a rediculous sq foot price which any real contractor knows is not possible. This is the real confusion.SoCalElectricalContractor said:
CopperTone
Senior Member
- Location
- MetroWest, MA
about 6 month ago in massachusetts I bid a 3500 sqft home with a 200amp service about 200ft underground, code minimum with 10 - 6" recessed lights in kitchen and cable and phone in 6 locations in house. Our bid was tight at $19,500.
I gave the price over the phone - the cheap gc was speechless - actually speechless - he said the house next door he did 2 years ago he paid 12,000 for electrical. I asked where that EC was now - out of business he said. there you go.
when i was dropping off the bid later that day on the job there already was another EC walking through the job site.
needless to say, we never heard from him again.
My point is - I am happy to not get the job - I actually laughed at the GC on the phone when he said 12,000 - I told him I wouldn't even get out of bed for that amount - and I also asked him to let me know the name of the EC that ended up doing the work because I'd like to ask them how they planned on making a dime on the job or if they planed on writing a check out of their own pocket to complete the job.
We bid, we lose , we win, we move on.
know your costs, figure in profit, and bid away - the EC's that bid bottom of the barrel prices consistently either have to whip the men, hire illegal worker, no benefits, or just disappear after a while.
When American or documented workers with SS#'s work - they should get a fair wage (pay taxes)and benefits(health ins, vacation, holidays, retirement, etc). A company should pay all required insurances as well.
If a company cannot afford any of these for their employees then they cannot be charging enough to complete a job.
I gave the price over the phone - the cheap gc was speechless - actually speechless - he said the house next door he did 2 years ago he paid 12,000 for electrical. I asked where that EC was now - out of business he said. there you go.
when i was dropping off the bid later that day on the job there already was another EC walking through the job site.
needless to say, we never heard from him again.
My point is - I am happy to not get the job - I actually laughed at the GC on the phone when he said 12,000 - I told him I wouldn't even get out of bed for that amount - and I also asked him to let me know the name of the EC that ended up doing the work because I'd like to ask them how they planned on making a dime on the job or if they planed on writing a check out of their own pocket to complete the job.
We bid, we lose , we win, we move on.
know your costs, figure in profit, and bid away - the EC's that bid bottom of the barrel prices consistently either have to whip the men, hire illegal worker, no benefits, or just disappear after a while.
When American or documented workers with SS#'s work - they should get a fair wage (pay taxes)and benefits(health ins, vacation, holidays, retirement, etc). A company should pay all required insurances as well.
If a company cannot afford any of these for their employees then they cannot be charging enough to complete a job.
SoCalElectricalContractor
Member
After all of this I have learned 2 things. The first is all of you people wouldn't survive a day in the California business (Which is good for me) and I wasted my time posting and trying to explain myself. The second is I can do business all over America because I know my business is profitable at what i have gotten bids for in the past. I do know that moving across the country codes change drastically. I could see if you had to bend pipe all through a wood framed house it could get ridiculously expensive. But if you are using romex and doing a 2000 sq ft house for 10K, you are ripping people off. If I got those prices, we would make almost 100% profit. Material included.
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