Portable Generators - GFCI - System Bonding Jumper

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tom baker

tom baker

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I recall some comments and proposals for the 2014 NEC on portable generators to require a system bonding jumper- some mfgs say its safer not to have a system bonding jumper, and report many portables do not have a system bonding jumper
Whats the experience in the field, is any one seeing generators without system bonding jumpers?
Are you starting to see generators with GFCIs to meet 2011 NEC requirements?
 
tom baker said:
I recall some comments and proposals for the 2014 NEC on portable generators to require a system bonding jumper- some mfgs say its safer not to have a system bonding jumper, and report many portables do not have a system bonding jumper
Whats the experience in the field, is any one seeing generators without system bonding jumpers?
Are you starting to see generators with GFCIs to meet 2011 NEC requirements?
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If the generator is to be used as simply a portable generator then the EGC will be bonded together with the neutral and bonded to the frame.
If the generator is to be used to supply emergency power to an existing structure that has a service entrance as supplied by a utility using a listed transfer switch then you must consider that the neutral and ground most likely are bonded together at the generator and there would be an insure when the neutral and ground are also tied together at the service entrance if the TS just transfers the lines and not the neutral.
 
Tom

If I understand what I am hearing and have been hearing for the past few years there is a big difference between a portable generator that is used for an Article 700 Emergency System or 701 Legally Required Standby System installations and a stand-alone generator that pops to mind when the term portable generator is mentioned.

A 702 Optional Standby System installation is entirely different than an emergency or legally required system.

Stand-alone generators manufactured or remanufactured after 1-1-11 are required to have GFCI for all 120/240 30 amp and smaller receptacles, (590.6(A)(3) 2011). To connect one to a premises wiring system as a non-SDS would cause the GFCI device to open with or without the bonding to the frame.

In the 2014 cycle in 445.11 a new paragraph is added to state that the bonding of the neutral to the frame or the lack thereof must be marked on the frame. Also in 445.20 which will be new is the requirement for GFCI protection for receptacle of 120/240 volt 30 amp or less.

At any rate if the generator is being used outside then the receptacles must comply with any other receptacle installed outside such as in-use covers, weather resistance and so forth.
 
jwelectric said:
Tom



Stand-alone generators manufactured or remanufactured after 1-1-11 are required to have GFCI for all 120/240 30 amp and smaller receptacles, (590.6(A)(3) 2011). To connect one to a premises wiring system as a non-SDS would cause the GFCI device to open with or without the bonding to the frame.
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I see many brand new out of the box portable generators that have no such GFCI protection.
 
I see it as the portable generator is not covered by the NEC.

How you connect it to a premises wiring system is.
 
jwelectric said:
It doesn't sat brand new out of the box what it says is manufactured or remanufactured after 1-1-11 There is this thing I have heard about called inventory
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Given that fact this requirement is almost 2 1/2 years old I'm doubting that every new generator purchased today has been sitting on a shelf for 2 1/2 years. My friend just purchased a new generator and out of the box it has no GFCI protection. I'm wondering if there has been some relief from this requirement being implemented.
 
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Just an obscure thought and getting off the subject of being Code compliant here for a moment, although generator manufacturers want to make generators that are Code compliant they are most concerned with SALES, SALES, SALES. If they start making only portable generators that come equipped with GFCI protection on all receptacles, they will lose a large portion of their business to those who want to use portable generators for powering their houses in a power fail condition. As has been mentioned, once you connect one of these units to premise wiring it will trip the GFCI on the unit. Everybody down the line gets hurt financially (i.e. generator manufacturers, Reliance type transfer switch manufacturers, etc.) In reality, unless they an come up with some method whereby they can adapt these units easily to be interconnected with premise wiring, I don't see it happening. Just my opinion.
 
goldstar said:
Just an obscure thought and getting off the subject of being Code compliant here for a moment, although generator manufacturers want to make generators that are Code compliant they are most concerned with SALES, SALES, SALES. If they start making only portable generators that come equipped with GFCI protection on all receptacles, they will lose a large portion of their business to those who want to use portable generators for powering their houses in a power fail condition. As has been mentioned, once you connect one of these units to premise wiring it will trip the GFCI on the unit. Everybody down the line gets hurt financially (i.e. generator manufacturers, Reliance type transfer switch manufacturers, etc.) In reality, unless they an come up with some method whereby they can adapt these units easily to be interconnected with premise wiring, I don't see it happening. Just my opinion.
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Generac is one proponent of such use. A great deal of their business is from generators used to power houses during utility failure. Even some of their generator literature makes no mention of GFCI protection for 30 amp 120/240 receptacles built into their generators. Here's a product sheet from 01/04/13 which has no mention of any GFCI protection so I'm wondering how they're getting around the NEC requirement that Mike posted.

http://www.generac.com/SpecSheets/0197820SBY_GP7500E.pdf
 
infinity said:
... Here's a product sheet from 01/04/13 which has no mention of any GFCI protection so I'm wondering how they're getting around the NEC requirement that Mike posted. ...
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How does a rule in the NEC apply to a manufacturer...it only applies to the installer. The typical portable generator is not installed and not within the scope of the NEC.

This is much like the issue of the Type EF LFMC (the non-listed product) compared to the Type UA (the listed product). The NEC has required the use of the listed product starting with the 96 code. At a trade show, I asked a manufacturer why they still make the non-compliant product and was told "the customers want it and it is not a code violation to make it and sell it...it is only a code violation to install it".
 
infinity said:
Generac is one proponent of such use. A great deal of their business is from generators used to power houses during utility failure. Even some of their generator literature makes no mention of GFCI protection for 30 amp 120/240 receptacles built into their generators. Here's a product sheet from 01/04/13 which has no mention of any GFCI protection so I'm wondering how they're getting around the NEC requirement that Mike posted.

http://www.generac.com/SpecSheets/0197820SBY_GP7500E.pdf
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Why should the NEC requirement stop them from manufacturing something there is demand for? NEC requirement is not the same as some law that bans manufacturing or requires certain safety features. It is going to effect whether or not installers can use it. Apparently there is enough installers that either can use it or are violating the NEC and either don't know or care. Also if the generator is not powering a premises wiring system the NEC doesn't really apply in most cases. What needs changed is listing requirements if you want them to manufacture them in a certain way.
 
kwired said:
I see it as the portable generator is not covered by the NEC.
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I agree, why would a manufacturer care what the NEC wants?

How you connect it to a premises wiring system is.
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Even then, IMO it has nothing to do with the generator.

Being in NJ, I have installed countless interlock kits and transfer panels. Not once has an inspector asked about the generator. In many of these installations the homeowner didn't even buy the generator yet (they were hard to find for a while).

What the homeowner attaches to the inlet is none of my concern. I give advice, but its up to them to listen to it or not.

So I guess the question is, is the homeowner required to follow the NEC when purchasing and connecting a generator to the inlet? And since a permit isn't required for that, does the AHJ have any jurisdiction over what the homeowner does? So, would any of this be enforceable at all?
 
Vector said:
I agree, why would a manufacturer care what the NEC wants?



Even then, IMO it has nothing to do with the generator.

Being in NJ, I have installed countless interlock kits and transfer panels. Not once has an inspector asked about the generator. In many of these installations the homeowner didn't even buy the generator yet (they were hard to find for a while).

What the homeowner attaches to the inlet is none of my concern. I give advice, but its up to them to listen to it or not.

So I guess the question is, is the homeowner required to follow the NEC when purchasing and connecting a generator to the inlet? And since a permit isn't required for that, does the AHJ have any jurisdiction over what the homeowner does? So, would any of this be enforceable at all?
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Pretty much what my point was.
On top of that what is to stop them from having an older generator that doesn't meet the requirement. We as contractors are supposed to tell them that it needs discarded? That will go over well in most cases.:happyno:
 
I was commenting on Mike's information in post #3 and his snarky retort in post #5. As I see it, required or not by the NEC, manufacturers are not including GFCI protection in every 15 KW generator made after 1.1.11. I was responding to that point alone and asking if there is a reason for the non-compliance.
 
infinity said:
I was commenting on Mike's information in post #3 and his snarky retort in post #5. As I see it, required or not by the NEC, manufacturers are not including GFCI protection in every 15 KW generator made after 1.1.11. I was responding to that point alone and asking if there is a reason for the non-compliance.
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Not trying to be too "snarky" but what is a reason for them to comply? If inspectors begin to reject enough of them sales will drop and they will need make and sell more units that do comply. They possibly make both compliant and non compliant models, the consumer is who is buying them.
 
kwired said:
Not trying to be too "snarky" but what is a reason for them to comply? If inspectors begin to reject enough of them sales will drop and they will need make and sell more units that do comply. They possibly make both compliant and non compliant models, the consumer is who is buying them.
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I believe that the original proposal came from Ul so I'm wondering if the listing of the generator would require compliance.
 
infinity said:
I believe that the original proposal came from Ul so I'm wondering if the listing of the generator would require compliance.
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I guess there is no law saying they can't sell non listed units. There is other non listed equipment being sold all the time, it is code enforcement that is going to make a person use a listed item if they have a choice between listed and non listed.
 
kwired said:
Pretty much what my point was.
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I wasn't trying to step on your toes, just cementing your point. :)


On a different note, it's Saturday so I'm a little off. If neutral is only bonded to ground at the panel inside of the house and not on the portable generator's frame, a GFCI installed in the generator would trip?

I've always wondered what the point of having 4 wires (H,H,N,G) going out to the generator was if the neutral wasn't bonded to the frame of the generator. In that case the EGC does nothing, correct?
 
Vector said:
On a different note, it's Saturday so I'm a little off. If neutral is only bonded to ground at the panel inside of the house and not on the portable generator's frame, a GFCI installed in the generator would trip?
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No reason it should trip, as long as there is no neutral - ground bond on the supply side of the GFCI. Remember that the equipment grounding will operate at same voltage potential as the neutral also and can carry neutral current.

I've always wondered what the point of having 4 wires (H,H,N,G) going out to the generator was if the neutral wasn't bonded to the frame of the generator. In that case the EGC does nothing, correct?
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If there is 4 wires you should either have the neutral bonded to generator frame and isolate neutral and ground beyond the generator, or in most cases there is no bond in the generator. The generator is an ungrounded system when it is stand alone. With ungrounded systems you must still run an equipment grounding conductor to bond all non current carrying metal parts together. Should one conductor of the system develop a fault to this grounding conductor you then have a low impedance path to clear overcurrent devices should a second system conductor develop a fault.

When it is connected to a premises wiring system that is a grounded system, the premises bonding jumper becomes the bonding point for this generator supplied system. The 4th wire back to the generator only has one purpose in this case - to bond the generator frame.
 
infinity said:
...manufacturers are not including GFCI protection in every 15 KW generator made after 1.1.11. I was responding to that point alone and asking if there is a reason for the non-compliance.
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There is nothing in place that would force compliance, so why would they comply with a rule that they are not required to comply with?
 
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