PPE for Residential and light commercial HVACR work

[kwired]

One more discussion I have been involved in before and still makes absolutely no sense to me involves why POCO technicians can do certain work live but your average "electrician" can not do those same tasks, particularly on low voltages of 600 and less even if utilizing more PPE then the POCO guy typically wears. I guess the voltage/current knows who is working on it and will not bother a POCO employee at low voltages:roll:. Same task to me means same risks. If one particular person can be trained to work with those risks why can't anyone else as long as they have same training?

 

[big john]

Because majority of you are doing regularly this without being killed by any arc flash:

Something can still be hazardous without causing death. There are a lot of guys who have had close calls or been injured from screwups working on residential services. That's what the PPE requirements are supposed to mitigate.

Besides which, the majority of electricians have worked on commercial/industrial equipment without PPE despite very serious flash hazards and not been in accidents: How frequently a task gets done has no bearing on how much hazard that task poses.

 

[iwire]

One more discussion I have been involved in before and still makes absolutely no sense to me involves why POCO technicians can do certain work live but your average "electrician" can not do those same tasks, particularly on low voltages of 600 and less even if utilizing more PPE then the POCO guy typically wears. I guess the voltage/current knows who is working on it and will not bother a POCO employee at low voltages:roll:. Same task to me means same risks. If one particular person can be trained to work with those risks why can't anyone else as long as they have same training?

The risks are different.

The level of training and compliance with rules is much better.

 

[kwired]

The risks are different.

The level of training and compliance with rules is much better.

why is compliance better? I can show you some POCO employees that may prove that wrong - in particular many of them work for small town municipal systems, and they are departments with only a half dozen or less people that are so called qualified. Though I can say in recent years that some of the old guys in those organizations have retired and been replaced by some that maybe worked for bigger POCO's and have brought some of what they learned there with them.

 

[JFletcher]

One more discussion I have been involved in before and still makes absolutely no sense to me involves why POCO technicians can do certain work live but your average "electrician" can not do those same tasks, particularly on low voltages of 600 and less even if utilizing more PPE then the POCO guy typically wears. I guess the voltage/current knows who is working on it and will not bother a POCO employee at low voltages:roll:. Same task to me means same risks. If one particular person can be trained to work with those risks why can't anyone else as long as they have same training?

Last time I dealt with a POCO serviceman, he was changing the 20kV, 75A fuse that blew on the pole around the corner, leaving us in the dark. Since it was 1am, hot as heck, and no power, I talked to him for a bit. Bucket truck rated for 100kV. Hot stick rated about the same. Suited up, snapped in 75A fuse, it didnt dynamite itself, came down, unsuited, left. Two hours work, most of it looking for downed trees on powerlines, less than 5 min on the suit up and fuse change. and he was 15' away from it. alone.

Even when they have to get closer than 15', notice those orange insulation mats everywhere on the lines? POCO guys arent rushed from what I've seen. Resi electricians might take shortcuts because its only 120/240V. But up that to 7200 or 19920V and fk shortcuts, there is no "ouch, that sucks" at that level, just death.

 

[kwired]

Last time I dealt with a POCO serviceman, he was changing the 20kV, 75A fuse that blew on the pole around the corner, leaving us in the dark. Since it was 1am, hot as heck, and no power, I talked to him for a bit. Bucket truck rated for 100kV. Hot stick rated about the same. Suited up, snapped in 75A fuse, it didnt dynamite itself, came down, unsuited, left. Two hours work, most of it looking for downed trees on powerlines, less than 5 min on the suit up and fuse change. and he was 15' away from it. alone.

Even when they have to get closer than 15', notice those orange insulation mats everywhere on the lines? POCO guys arent rushed from what I've seen. Resi electricians might take shortcuts because its only 120/240V. But up that to 7200 or 19920V and fk shortcuts, there is no "ouch, that sucks" at that level, just death.

I never seen a lineman "suit up" around here. Do they wear FR clothing, hard hats, safety glasses, yes, most of those items are worn anytime they are working even if it is on something dead. I do see the orange mats, gloves etc. depending on the task, but about all they usually put on when using a hot stick that they don't already have on is gloves.

Connection of service drops is always up close and personal and quite often live, they do wear gloves for this but have little else to protect them from any arc flash. Incident energy I can also agree may not be all that high in many cases, but nobody takes the time to determine what it is either, and it will be worse at the supply end then at the house.

 

[JFletcher]

I never seen a lineman "suit up" around here. Do they wear FR clothing, hard hats, safety glasses, yes, most of those items are worn anytime they are working even if it is on something dead. I do see the orange mats, gloves etc. depending on the task, but about all they usually put on when using a hot stick that they don't already have on is gloves.

Connection of service drops is always up close and personal and quite often live, they do wear gloves for this but have little else to protect them from any arc flash. Incident energy I can also agree may not be all that high in many cases, but nobody takes the time to determine what it is either, and it will be worse at the supply end then at the house.

The lineman did tell me that many poco lineman dont work on 20kV/35kV lines as that's considered 'distribution voltage' (his words, not mine).

I dont claim to know all about arc flash, quite the opposite, however the poco here tests the house/feeders for faults before hook-up, and they wont hook up service if they find one.

Hooking up a service is probably a very different animal than changing a blown fuse. I'd assume since we dont read stories everyday of linemen getting burnt to a crisp or electrocuted that they are doing it right, through a plethora of rules we arent privy to. A little more than a century ago, something like 1 in 2 lineman died on the job.

 

[kwired]

The lineman did tell me that many poco lineman dont work on 20kV/35kV lines as that's considered 'distribution voltage' (his words, not mine).

I dont claim to know all about arc flash, quite the opposite, however the poco here tests the house/feeders for faults before hook-up, and they wont hook up service if they find one.

Hooking up a service is probably a very different animal than changing a blown fuse. I'd assume since we dont read stories everyday of linemen getting burnt to a crisp or electrocuted that they are doing it right, through a plethora of rules we arent privy to. A little more than a century ago, something like 1 in 2 lineman died on the job.

And the non utility company electrician is trained differently today then he was a century ago as well, I still don't see why they think the POCO guys are more immune to some of those things then other electrical workers. Electricity doesn't discriminate like that, and anyone working with it, especially in live conditions should be trained to do so, but yet they act like a non utility worker is not trainable for this. Makes no sense to me.

 

[electrofelon]

One more discussion I have been involved in before and still makes absolutely no sense to me involves why POCO technicians can do certain work live but your average "electrician" can not do those same tasks, particularly on low voltages of 600 and less even if utilizing more PPE then the POCO guy typically wears. I guess the voltage/current knows who is working on it and will not bother a POCO employee at low voltages:roll:. Same task to me means same risks. If one particular person can be trained to work with those risks why can't anyone else as long as they have same training?

I concur. I agree with Iwire to some extent that perhaps there is more consistent training and less "variables" with lineman work. Also I know there are rules (OSHA) and I am not a fan of someone putting someone at risk so he can make a few more bucks, BUT as a self employed person not subject to OSHA ,I also do not like being scolded for doing hot work (which I have been on this forum in the past). Do you scold a lineman everytime you see them? IMO, hot work can certainly be done safety with the right procedures and if you know what you are doing.

 

[kwired]

I concur. I agree with Iwire to some extent that perhaps there is more consistent training and less "variables" with lineman work. Also I know there are rules (OSHA) and I am not a fan of someone putting someone at risk so he can make a few more bucks, BUT as a self employed person not subject to OSHA ,I also do not like being scolded for doing hot work (which I have been on this forum in the past). Do you scold a lineman everytime you see them? IMO, hot work can certainly be done safety with the right procedures and if you know what you are doing.

My opinion is if they want more training before you are allowed to perform a certain task, then just about anyone can receive that training, aren't they qualified if they have met the requirements?

You wouldn't want an anesthesiologist performing a kidney transplant, but if same person got all the training needed to become a surgeon that would change things.

 

[iwire]

My opinion is if they want more training before you are allowed to perform a certain task, then just about anyone can receive that training, aren't they qualified if they have met the requirements?

You wouldn't want an anesthesiologist performing a kidney transplant, but if same person got all the training needed to become a surgeon that would change things.

If you worked for an electrical contractor doing utility type work you would be subject to the same rules utility workers are.

 

[kwired]

If you worked for an electrical contractor doing utility type work you would be subject to the same rules utility workers are.

Understand, but a particular task is a particular task and the hazards of doing that task don't change just because you have a different job title or employer. Whether or not you are trained to perform that task should be all that matters.

 

[iwire]

Understand, but a particular task is a particular task and the hazards of doing that task don't change just because you have a different job title or employer. Whether or not you are trained to perform that task should be all that matters.

No, you do not understand.:happyno:

OSHA does not care if your title is electrician or utility worker, what OSHA cares about are the tasks you are doing. The rules are different for different tasks along with the training.

 

[kwired]

No, you do not understand.:happyno:

OSHA does not care if your title is electrician or utility worker, what OSHA cares about are the tasks you are doing. The rules are different for different tasks along with the training.

And all along I have been saying that the task and the training is what is important, not the job title.

Now I can understand if the training needs to be more intense for a particular task, or even have frequent follow up training as a requirement that maybe the POCO's feel they can afford to train for that task where the typical EC can't justify it as easily, but the task is the same regardless of whether it is done by a lineman, an electrician or the secretary, and IMO the training to be qualified should be the same as well.

 

[iwire]

And all along I have been saying that the task and the training is what is important, not the job title.

Now I can understand if the training needs to be more intense for a particular task, or even have frequent follow up training as a requirement that maybe the POCO's feel they can afford to train for that task where the typical EC can't justify it as easily, but the task is the same regardless of whether it is done by a lineman, an electrician or the secretary, and IMO the training to be qualified should be the same as well.

If they are doing the same task.

You wiring a motor in a farm is not the same task as running overhead primaries.

When you are running overhead primaries then you would be subject to the same rules / allowances as linemen

How are you not understanding this?

 

[kwired]

If they are doing the same task.

You wiring a motor in a farm is not the same task as running overhead primaries.

When you are running overhead primaries then you would be subject to the same rules / allowances as linemen

How are you not understanding this?

I was never talking about working with medium voltage equipment, I have been talking about tasks that linemen do on live secondary equipment that an electrician possibly may run into the situation of wanting or needing to do at some time, like connecting a service drop to a building riser, pulling or installing a meter or even just opening the door on the secondary side only of a padmount transformer. Yes many POCO don't want you to do those tasks, but others look the other way, and as some on this site have mentioned in the past there are places they don't care about how soon they get around to connecting a new service for a customer, just glad I don't have that problem with any of the POCO in this area.

Have I connected service drops before? yes. But I'd say I have cut many more then I have connected when changing a service.

Do I do as many residential service changes as I once did? No, especially not replacing old fuse boxes with circuit breaker load centers but no other significant work being done. Majority of new services I do install are underground feed and POCO usually has locks on the equipment it is supplied from or it is high up on one of their poles and they have better equipment to access the connection anyway. I just bury line to the base of pole and they run it the rest of the way up when they come to connect it.

 

[K8MHZ]

I cross paths with one of the local linesman from time to time and we have wasted a bunch of people's money by chatting over the years.

He told me that all the clothes they wear are supplied by the POCO, even T-shirts. He said that they couldn't wear anything else, even if it was FR and made by the same company. Our POCO is very safety oriented and has a great safety record. What we groundlings may observe as unsafe work by a POCO employee just might be safe for that instance. Linesmen also work outside in thunderstorms when there is lightning. I think that is crazy, but if they didn't do it, power restoration would be much slower.

His truck has PPE for up to 41Kv, IIRC. The gloves and such are usually in plain view.

Linesmen and JIW's definitely do not have the same training.

Linesmen also have training that firefighters don't have. In Michigan, you won't see a firefighter putting out an electrical fire. Their job is to keep people away from the burning gear and to put out any incidental fires in the surrounding area, if there are any. The transformer or substation fire rages on until a POCO truck with a bunch of fire extinguishers shows up. I have personally seen this happen. Twice, now, I was at transformer fires before the POCO got there and shot the (really stinky) breeze with the lucky cop or fireman that got the job to block off the area.

Other POCO's may be different, but Consumers Energy is to be highly regarded for their efforts.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

One of the huge differences between utility work and electrical is that most of the utility work is out in the open and the arc flash energy spreads out in all directions. It is not directed at you like it is when working on equipment that is in an enclosure. Another difference is that in most cases, the utility worker is no where near as close to grounded object or surfaces as an electrician is, making it less likely that an arc flash incident will occur.

 

[ActionDave]

One of the huge differences between utility work and electrical is that most of the utility work is out in the open and the arc flash energy spreads out in all directions. It is no directed at you like it is when working on equipment that is in an enclosure. Another difference is that in most cases, the utility worker is no where near as close to grounded object or surfaces as an electrician is, making it less likely that an arc flash incident will occur.

Well said.

 

[electrofelon]

If they are doing the same task.

You wiring a motor in a farm is not the same task as running overhead primaries.

When you are running overhead primaries then you would be subject to the same rules / allowances as linemen

How are you not understanding this?

So are you saying that if I work for a non utility employer and we are doing MV pole work under the nec, then I could work hot just like the utility worker could?