Profound business question

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i always was trained to do a presentable job. as an apprentice we had a new pipe bender come out from the supply house and it had a small pipe bending instruction book with it. at break time i started reading it and that afternoon i decided to put it to use. we were piping some fancy automated camera and it had about twenty control devices that all ended up in it's control panel which was mounted in the ceiling. i racked all the pipes and they layered nicely together and all the offsets matched perfectly. my foreman even commented how nice it looked!! next day my boss was on the job and looked up and saw the pipe work.
"who did that" as he pointed to the ceiling? i was proud to speak up and tell him "i did it"! then he proceeded to chew my butt out--"did you look at the plans? this room gets a dropped ceiling!!" -- "why waste all that nice pipe work where you can't see it!!!"

but then some years later -- "the shoe is on the other foot" and i'm the contractor??? well, i really believe if you always try to do a neat job, it doesn't take anymore time to do it right. once you loose sight of that idea, you lower your acceptable standards and get sloppy. weather something is in view or not, do it neat. after a while, it becomes natural, and when your running big pipe in exposed areas people just are amassed on how nice it looks. therefore i never complained about a neat installation. but what i looked at was labor saving routes some people could never find.............
 
Which would you rather put your name on?:

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PanelHS.jpg
 
480sparky said:
Which would you rather put your name on?:
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That is not a fair question at all. On the face of it, I'm sure we would all answer #2. The more important question is, can you make money by doing a compliant job?

The first panel could be made as neat as the second. Just cut back the excess slack, and swap out the breakers so they all match and are the correct model for the panel manufacturer. I can make out "ITE Imperial" on the label, so my guess is that Siemens breakers would bring this into compliance. Then you have a nice installation.
 
mdshunk said:
Does being too concerned about quality actually effect your bottom line? Is there such a thing as being too concerned about quality? Is 'good enough' okay most of the time?
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Getting back to the original questions... it should not affect the bottom line because it should be figured into your selling price. But I do think it will impact your winning the job if bidding against others that do not hold your same quality standard.

If you are selling to the end user and not a general contractor, a little salesmanship can overcome any objection to the selling price. A GC probably wouldn't care how it was put in, so long as the customer accepts it.

- Greg
 
When I do a new construction house I have made gauge pole for recp. box, switch box, and counter boxes saves me time not measuring each box and all are set at same height. But I do not pop a chalk line on the studs so all my holes are level, its going to be covered. When I drill studs I drill close to the face of the stud only need one nail plate. My son tries to drill in the center until I pointed out code to him. Say you drill 24 studs now you need 48 nail plates say 5 min. to install 24 you now have extra 5 min. to install 24 more. Sounds minuet but when you start adding the extra time and extra material over the span of a 4000 to 5000 sq ft house it will effect you bottom line. I am not saying I do not take time to make sure the recessed cans are in line, panels are neat, and every thing is up to code, and every thing the customer wants is in place, but the longer you stay on any job the less money you make.
 
ceb58 said:
When I drill studs I drill close to the face of the stud only need one nail plate.My son tries to drill in the center until I pointed out code to him. Say you drill 24 studs now you need 48 nail plates say 5 min. to install 24 you now have extra 5 min. to install 24 more.
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If they are 3.5" studs why would you need any nail plates?

Use a 1" bit in the center of the stud and leave all the nail plates at the supply house.
 
ceb58 said:
....When I drill studs I drill close to the face of the stud only need one nail plate.....
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I have never had to use a nail plate on a stud that's out 'in the field' of a wall. Only in tight corners.

I probably average 2 or 3 nail plates per house, exluding FHA plates over the panel.
 
mdshunk said:
Does being too concerned about quality actually effect your bottom line? Is there such a thing as being too concerned about quality? Is 'good enough' okay most of the time?
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I believe it is a fine dollar line between a good code and spec compliant project and a poorly executed project.

When my signature was on the contract, I consided the 'good enough' stress factor worth more than a few dollars, especially when I was called on to defend my crappy items on the final punchlist. And yes, I have had 'em.

Old too soon, schmart too late . . .

Best Wishes
 
Ed Carr said:
Marc-what caused you to start this thread?
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General disenchantment, I guess.

If I lose work, I'm not too proud to go and snoop around while the work is in progress and see what the winner is doing and how they're doing it. Also, work that I bid on maybe years earlier I get to see on a service call at a later time. I just sorta mumble to myself, "Man, I'd have never done it that way", or "I was planning on doing this in a much nicer way".

I don't necessarily do electrical work for the warm fuzzy feelings of a job well done or to build a legacy of some sort. These things are fine, but in the end it's how we make our living. I am starting to think that perhaps being too picky can impact earning a living.

Not all of us demand quality, or we'd all be living in bomb proof homes and driving Cadillacs. I guess the current struggle is determining when "good enough" is indeed just right. At some point it seems like you need to put your ego in your pocket, get the job done, and don't make such an art project out of it.
 
mdshunk said:
General disenchantment, I guess.

If I lose work, I'm not too proud to go and snoop around while the work is in progress and see what the winner is doing and how they're doing it. Also, work that I bid on maybe years earlier I get to see on a service call at a later time. I just sorta mumble to myself, "Man, I'd have never done it that way", or "I was planning on doing this in a much nicer way".
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I do the same thing.

I recently lost a 14K bid to someone who bid the job for 13K.

I stopped by one day, and instead of installing surface-mount 2x4 fluorescents on the ceiling, he screwed 2x4 troffers up instead. Not a drop ceiling, mind you... drywall. Looked like crap.

But I don't spend too much time on the little things, especially when they aren't going to on the cover of some glossy magazine.

"Don't sweat the petty stuff, and don't pet the sweaty stuff!"
 
I dont lose any sleep

I dont lose any sleep

Over "Give em what they pay for" If they want quick and dirty not meaning sloppy I can cut some corners and give them that. If they want a gold plated job you had better be willing to pay for it. When I was working in a mansion I was told to wire the panels as if they were going to put a GLASS COVER on the panel. After the first panel I brought all of the wires down and kept odd numbers on left number entering right to left as not to cross any in the panel. Mirror immage for even numbers. It became such a spectacle that I got to install the rest of the glass cover panels and people were asking me if I could do it at thier house too. They brought all thier neighbors over . Quality sells a job but if they want competitive pricing this is what you get competetive work not gold plate.
 
quogueelectric said:
Quality sells a job but if they want competitive pricing this is what you get competetive work not gold plate.
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It's not always clear (to me) what factors determined that I'm the guy doing the job. Did I get it on price alone? my reputation? was I the only guy that bid it? did they just like me? do they think I'll do it the best? do they think I'd be the cheapest? did they pick me because I seemed like I'd be right in the middle on both price and quality?

No matter how we try to market ourselves, it would seem to me, the reason we were actually chosen might be something that never crossed our feeble minds.
 
Usually, you can give the customers three options, and tell them they can pick two.

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mdshunk said:
No matter how we try to market ourselves, it would seem to me, the reason we were actually chosen might be something that never crossed our feeble minds.
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Ever try asking?
 
480sparky said:
Ever try asking?
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At times, it's not all that clear who to even ask, but I suppose I could many times. I am afraid to know, to be totally up front about it. Depending on the answer, it might be a permission slip to do some really crappy work, or it may cause me to go above and beyond the scope and blow the profit.

Somebody just sent me a PM, and suggested that the solution is to just "keep on keeping on".
 
from the perspective of an employee, who makes the same amount of money whether the job looks great or just "gets done" and it makes no difference to me how long the job takes because I get paid by the hour, here is my opinion.

I don't particularly enjoy doing electrical work for a living, it is very boring and repetitive and the only thing that keeps me sane when doing this job day in and day out is trying to do the best job i can possibly do, both code wise and aesthetically. When I do a pipe job whether it will be exposed or hidden in a drop ceiling, I strive for perfection. I want every job I do to be photo worthy and something I would be proud to put my name on. Some may call me anal, I call it breaking the monotony!
 
I believe that one has to adjust their quality standards for every single job, based on the cost of the job and the time constraints, all while staying code compliant.

You cannot possibly apply the same level of quality and workmanship to every single job. Some do, but the financial results are disastrous.
 
EBFD6 said:
....I don't particularly enjoy doing electrical work for a living, it is very boring and repetitive and the only thing that keeps me sane when doing this job day in and day.....
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Be glad you're not a sheetrocker, then.

Measure, cut, hang.
Measure, cut, hang.
Measure, cut, hang.

Do that until you're 35 and your back and knees are shot.

Then tape, mud, sand.
Tape, mud, sand....
 
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