'Proof' that AFCI devices really locate arcs.

[user 100]

Are you guys serious? Of course I know that wire nuts make the bulk of splices, where did I say solider is still common? :blink: Talk about jumping to conclusions. I only mentioned crimp/solider connections because that could have been one of several dozen listed alternatives where an electrician can pick and choose. The NEC lets you use an outlet AFCI if the home run is conduit, doesn't mean conduit is mandatory or common in home wiring. The NEC still allows fuses, if I mention that here do guys automatically assume Im saying that fuses are still used new dwelling construction instead of breakers?

Second, ask the British and others what they think of wire nuts :lol: Dont get me wring I use wire nuts, but some guys misuse them.

Your right that you never said solder was still common. I was only trying to explain why it would be impractical to to revive two time consuming, labor intensive and(thankfully) obsolete ways of terminating solid cccs which, btw, when applied correctly would provide no additional benefit against series arcing vs. a modern wirenut applied correctly. In residential time is money and while backstabs need to get the boot, the quickest cheapest way of getting things done is always going to win out and bcaps fit the bill when paired against a method that conjures up images of Tony Bennet's heyday, Falstaff, and a pack of Luckies.

 

[mbrooke]

Completely serious.

To bad some of them are assumptions, at least me not knowing about wiring practices.

I could not possibly care less what the British think of wire nuts. But since you brought it up, why don't you ask me what I think of terminal blocks at every connection?

When it comes to wiring the British don't do something without reason. I wont ask you about terminal blocks because they are falling out of style overseas, more and more people including me are turning to these :


http://www.amazon.com/Wago-222-413-LEVER-NUTS-Conductor-Connectors/dp/B003K124UA


If they catch on here wire nuts will also fall out of favor being a lot easier to work with.

So what?

Get rid of the no pre-twist rule.

Let me ask you a few direct questions. Would you mandate GCI? What is your "solution" to the "problem" of joule heating?

I would not.


If someone some where wanted to tackle Joule heating for his own wiring this is the way to do it. Not AFCIs or what cutler hammer is trying to get into the code right now.

 

[mbrooke]

Your right that you never said solder was still common. I was only trying to explain why it would be impractical to to revive two time consuming, labor intensive and(thankfully) obsolete ways of terminating solid cccs which, btw, when applied correctly would provide no additional benefit against series arcing vs. a modern wirenut applied correctly. In residential time is money and while backstabs need to get the boot, the quickest cheapest way of getting things done is always going to win out and bcaps fit the bill when paired against a method that conjures up images of Tony Bennet's heyday, Falstaff, and a pack of Luckies.

In most cases you are correct, it would be impractical.

And ok, it might not have been the best thing to mention. But the point I am trying to get across is that the NEC could have given us a large laundry list alternative to AFCIs many of which costing little of anything.

 

[iwire]

To bad some of them are assumptions, at least me not knowing about wiring practices.

Nope, not an assumption.

Your discussions with mivey and myself show you really don't know much about hands on wiring practices.

When you ask questions like 'what other types of splices are there besides 3 wire splices' it proves without doubt you are book taught and not hands on.

Therefore your opinions on how things should be done are no more valid than my opinions about how to calculate arc flash energy.

 

[growler]

Second, ask the British and others what they think of wire nuts :lol:.

The British drive in the left side of the road ( for some reason) but if they were to have fewer driving accidents could we assume that it's because it's safer to drive on the left side of the road?

We would have to take into account the driving conditions, miles driven, driver training, condition of the cars and a multitude of other factors.

When there is an auto accident they do attempt to get a few facts straight as to what actually caused the accident.

When they start getting the facts straight about fires we will have a better idea as to what is actually the cause of residential fires.

 

[mbrooke]

Nope, not an assumption.

Your discussions with mivey and myself show you really don't know much about hands on wiring practices.

When you ask questions like 'what other types of splices are there besides 3 wire splices' it proves without doubt you are book taught and not hands on.

Therefore your opinions on how things should be done are no more valid than my opinions about how to calculate arc flash energy.

Show me the post number because without a doubt thats being taken out of context.

 

[growler]

When it comes to wiring the British don't do something without reason.

Most people do have reasons for the things they do but are they valid reasons?

 

[growler]

http://www.amazon.com/Wago-222-413-LEVER-NUTS-Conductor-Connectors/dp/B003K124UA


If they catch on here wire nuts will also fall out of favor being a lot easier to work with.

Wagos are not always easier to work with. When trouble-shooting and needing to take apart a splice then wire nuts are much easier to deal with.

When needing to extend a conductor because someone cut it way to short and haveing to work in a confined space then wire nuts are better ( back of junction box).

We see many wire nutted splices from the 1960s that are still in great condition. How do you know that the wago will stand the test of time?

 

[peter d]

To bad some of them are assumptions, at least me not knowing about wiring practices.

Your own statements prove that you have little to no hands-on experience with wiring. Otherwise, you wouldn't be arguing about the complexity of installing a GCI device or how much room it takes up in a box. This is basic stuff that a 2nd or 3rd year apprentice would know.

When it comes to wiring the British don't do something without reason.

So we do everything without reason? :roll: Wire nuts are safe and reliable. We don't need terminal blocks at every connection.

I wont ask you about terminal blocks because they are falling out of style overseas, more and more people including me are turning to these :


http://www.amazon.com/Wago-222-413-LEVER-NUTS-Conductor-Connectors/dp/B003K124UA


If they catch on here wire nuts will also fall out of favor being a lot easier to work with.

I'm not a fan of wago's as I believe they have the same inherent weakness that all push-in connectors do, even if they are better made than a back-stab device.

Get rid of the no pre-twist rule.

There is no such thing as a "no pre-twist" rule. The instructions simply state that pre-twisting is not required. Again, why should we make changes to cater to unqualified hacks? I can make a perfectly reliable splice without pre-twisting. You have an obsession with making premises wiring systems idiot-proof and that simply is not possible.

I would not.

I'm glad to hear that.

 

[mbrooke]

Most people do have reasons for the things they do but are they valid reasons?

Ill put it like this, UL confirmed that IEC wiring practices do the same as AFCIs do.

 

[iwire]

Wagos are not always easier to work with. When trouble-shooting and needing to take apart a splice then wire nuts are much easier to deal with.

FYI, that is not a standard 'Wago' that has levers you lift to insert or remove wires.

I have used them and they seem OK, but nowhere near as tight as connection as a properly made up wire nut.

These gizmos have to carry the current vs a wirenut which simply clamps the conductors together.

 

[iwire]

Ill put it like this, UL confirmed that IEC wiring practices do the same as AFCIs do.

Stop exaggerating that is not what UL has done

 

[growler]

Ill put it like this, UL confirmed that IEC wiring practices do the same as AFCIs do.

There you have it.

What do AFCIs do? They take up time and cost more money but do little else.

 

[iwire]

There is no such thing as a "no pre-twist" rule. The instructions simply state that pre-twisting is not required.

And the instructions do not stop there, they tell you to twist the nut until two full twists are visible outside the wirenut.

 

[peter d]

Ill put it like this, UL confirmed that IEC wiring practices do the same as AFCIs do.

I'll be blunt here. I'm sick of hearing about IEC wiring practices in a discussion about North American wiring practices. The fact remains is that we have a NEMA system and it's not going to change. Can we learn from the IEC? Yes, of course we can. But the IEC is not the savior of American wiring practice nor do they have all the answers.

And I'll add that if you had actual experience with IEC parts like starters, contactors and circuit breakers, you wouldn't be singing their praises so much. I'll take a NEMA product any day of the week.

 

[iwire]

There you have it.

What do AFCIs do? They take up time and cost more money but do little else.

:lol::lol::lol:

Good point. ... Great point.

 

[mbrooke]

Your own statements prove that you have little to no hands-on experience with wiring. Otherwise, you wouldn't be arguing about the complexity of installing a GCI device or how much room it takes up in a box. This is basic stuff that a 2nd or 3rd year apprentice would know.

You mean the statements that Iwire is taking out of context (as usual) when I was describing the video and not every j/device box on the planet?

And I specifically said that was a prototype. So yahhh, it was massive in the video Im not denying that.

So we do everything without reason? :roll: Wire nuts are safe and reliable. We don't need terminal blocks at every connection.

Some guys do.

I'm not a fan of wago's as I believe they have the same inherent weakness that all push-in connectors do, even if they are better made than a back-stab device.

Wagos are not the same as a back stab, the mechanism is a lot better thought out. I bring wagos and terminal blocks up as

There is no such thing as a "no pre-twist" rule. The instructions simply state that pre-twisting is not required. Again, why should we make changes to cater to unqualified hacks? I can make a perfectly reliable splice without pre-twisting. You have an obsession with making premises wiring systems idiot-proof and that simply is not possible.

Look at the box "no pre-twisting required" That translates to you don't have to pretwist your splices, but you are welcome to if you choose to do so. Ok I should have chosen a better word then "rule" since its not in the literal sense, but Id think for you guys that would be self explanatory.

I'm glad to hear that.

 

[iwire]

And I'll add that if you had actual experience with IEC parts like starters, contactors and circuit breakers, you wouldn't be singing their praises so much. I'll take a NEMA product any day of the week.

Oh boy, that is so true.

IEC motor starter closes into a fault, it is now junk and must be replaced

NEMA motor starter closes into a fault, fix fault, reset breaker good to go.

 

[mbrooke]

Stop exaggerating that is not what UL has done

:lol:

The UL report states “breakers can be effective at mitigating arcing faults,
provided the available fault current can be guaranteed to exceed the magnetic
trip level of the circuit breaker by a factor of 1.25.”

 

[mbrooke]

I'll be blunt here. I'm sick of hearing about IEC wiring practices in a discussion about North American wiring practices. The fact remains is that we have a NEMA system and it's not going to change. Can we learn from the IEC? Yes, of course we can. But the IEC is not the savior of American wiring practice nor do they have all the answers.

And I'll add that if you had actual experience with IEC parts like starters, contactors and circuit breakers, you wouldn't be singing their praises so much. I'll take a NEMA product any day of the week.

Im not talking about their shoe boxpanel boards, Im talking about their theory.

I bring up IEC codes because Im trying to prove a point you can practical safeguard without gimmicks. You and I both know NEMA is changing for the worse. Fact is North America is ruled by a manufacturer driven NFPA which in 20 years will probably triple the cost of each new electrical installation with a mountain of gimmicks. You tell me why I am being attacked now for speaking out against this?