'Proof' that AFCI devices really locate arcs.

[peter d]

Im not talking about their shoe box panel boards, Im talking about their theory.

If you mean GFPE/RCD, then I agree that it's a much better solution than an AFCI. But taken as a whole, IEC products are garbage compared to NEMA.

I bring up IEC wiring practices because Im trying to prove a point you can practical safeguard without gimmicks.

But yet you have jumped on the GCI bandwagon, which makes no sense at all given your stance on GFPE/RCD.

You and I both know NEMA is changing for the worse. Fact is North America is ruled by a manufacturer driven NFPA which in 20 years will probably triple the cost of each electrical installation with a mountain of gimmicks.

I agree and have been highly critical of AFCI's and industry trends. But please don't suggest yet another gimmick as the solution.

 

[mbrooke]

Oh boy, that is so true.

IEC motor starter closes into a fault, it is now junk and must be replaced

NEMA motor starter closes into a fault, fix fault, reset breaker good to go.

Again, assumptions. I never said we should adopt their junk. Im saying we can learn from their theory.


And I have to start using post quote :lol:

 

[mbrooke]

If you mean GFPE/RCD, then I agree that it's a much better solution than an AFCI. But taken as a whole, IEC products are garbage compared to NEMA.

Of course IEC products are garbage, but the whole GFCI thing came from the IEC. Thats an IEC concept.

But yet you have jumped on the GCI bandwagon, which makes no sense at all given your stance on GFPE/RCD.

Explain.

I agree and have been highly critical of AFCI's and industry trends. But please don't suggest yet another gimmick as the solution.

Again, see my other post. I am not advocating GCI be mandated by the NEC.

 

[peter d]

Oh boy, that is so true.

IEC motor starter closes into a fault, it is now junk and must be replaced

NEMA motor starter closes into a fault, fix fault, reset breaker good to go.

:thumbsup:

I worked for a machine tool rebuilder/ manufacturer and we used IEC stuff all the time, unless spec'd otherwise. I felt bad that we had to install such junk in our machines, but that's what the bosses wanted.

On the other hand, we rebuilt some machines for a General Electric factory and they spec all NEMA equipment (GE, of course :lol. It was nice to use that stuff for a change.

 

[peter d]

Explain.

You have been singing the praises of GCI throughout this thread, and have been arguing with Mivey about how they are not more complex and don't take up more space in the box.

 

[mbrooke]

You have been singing the praises of GCI throughout this thread, and have been arguing with Mivey about how they are not more complex and don't take up more space in the box.

And I have also been singing the praise about GFCI. After all it was GFP in AFCIs that caught mountains of hack work which I am ashamed to admit.


As I said, that GCI is a prototype, the point that I am trying to make is that with refinement you'd be surprised how small something can get. Mivey says not so. I disagree here.

As for more complex again, and maybe Im wrong, or blinded, but take a 9 wire L-G-N j-box. Stick 3 ground in one hole turn screw, stick 3 noodles in second hole turn screw, 3 hots in 3rd hole turn screw. Push splice into box. Put on cover.

Again, Im not mandating this.

 

[mbrooke]

Nope, not an assumption.

Your discussions with mivey and myself show you really don't know much about hands on wiring practices.

When you ask questions like 'what other types of splices are there besides 3 wire splices' it proves without doubt you are book taught and not hands on.

Therefore your opinions on how things should be done are no more valid than my opinions about how to calculate arc flash energy.

Ok nice try, I went back to check, never said that. But I do know what you were referring to after it was quoted by Mivey:

Look at the size, its equal to 3 wire nuts. And who said that device cant hold, splice and insulate a conductor? :blink: Your making random assumptions.

And again, in a 3 wire to 3 wire splice what extra conductors? Actually in most cases what extra conductors?

Im not wishing anything, I just think you refuse to see something.

I was referring to the video in regards to 3 on 3. Mivey made it sound like extra conductors were being brought over to the splice besides hot, neutral, ground. Yes I am fully aware hundreds of different splice configurations exist, yes I am aware j boxes can have multiple circuits with one ground; multiple hots with one neutral; switch legs; branches; the list goes on. Out of all people I ought to be the one who knows that. Anyone reading my prior posts outside this thread can figure that out. And yes I am well aware in multi circuit cases with independent neutrals each splice would need a ground brought to it even if splices were designed to take take multiple hots.

However I kept referring to a typical single circuit scenario for the sake of the discussion to keep it easy. Not sure why that needed to be misconstrued and taken out of context to paint a picture...

 

[templdl]

Because real electricians have moved away from soldering splices to those new fangled wire nuts. If you were in the trade, you would know this.

I find it astonishing and very disturbing that you've decided to undermine the excellent safety and track record of wire nuts.

Yes, I remember when an electrical would strip the wire to be spiced, twist the splices together then go around with a small pot of melted solder dippig each mo. Then he would rap the splices with cloth electrical tap.

 

[user 100]

Ok nice try, I went back to check, never said that. But I do know what you were referring to after it was quoted by Mivey:




I was referring to the video in regards to 3 on 3. Mivey made it sound like extra conductors were being brought over to the splice besides hot, neutral, ground. Yes I am fully aware hundreds of different splice configurations exist, yes I am aware j boxes can have multiple circuits with one ground; multiple hots with one neutral; switch legs; branches; the list goes on. Out of all people I ought to be the one who knows that. Anyone reading my prior posts outside this thread can figure that out. And yes I am well aware in multi circuit cases with independent neutrals each splice would need a ground brought to it even if splices were designed to take take multiple hots.

However I kept referring to a typical single circuit scenario for the sake of the discussion to keep it easy. Not sure why that needed to be misconstrued and taken out of context to paint a picture...

mbrooke, I think your missing the big picture. While most electricians want safety we simply don't want something that is going to make our jobs that much more of headache, drives up costs for customers/doing business, and is already vastly superceded by other simpler products/methods-that is why the opposition to afci and in turn thats why it is reasonable to object to individual fusing of joints. Actually when one looks at the amount of labor and cost involved for the fusing scheme, the afci located at the bc origin ,even with all its nuisance tripping, ends up making more sense- why fuse an individual joint when you ​could protect the whole circuit?

 

[donaldelectrician]

mbrooke, I think your missing the big picture. While most electricians want safety we simply don't want something that is going to make our jobs that much more of headache, drives up costs for customers/doing business, and is already vastly superceded by other simpler products/methods-that is why the opposition to afci and in turn thats why it is reasonable to object to individual fusing of joints. Actually when one looks at the amount of labor and cost involved for the fusing scheme, the afci located at the bc origin ,even with all its nuisance tripping, ends up making more sense- why fuse an individual joint when you ​could protect the whole circuit?

F*** the AFCI , periode . We do not want or need this .

An Edison based fuse at the origin of the Branch Circuit is superior protection and way cheaper . A cartridge fuse is better and last a standard cb is better .



Don

 

[user 100]

F*** the AFCI , periode . We do not want or need this .

An Edison based fuse at the origin of the Branch Circuit is superior protection and way cheaper .



Don

The last part of my last post was NOT an endorsement of the afci-it was meant to illustrate the fact that this individual fusing thing makes no sense up against the afci concept-it will be eviscerated. It will derided by the pro afci bunch (I'm fully aware of the irony of them doing this) as not cost effective, or practical and they will be correct-it is neither. They will claim that is unnecessary, not because it is actually unneccessary (it isn't needed), but because "the afci protects the whole circuit and is way cheaper."

 

[mbrooke]

mbrooke, I think your missing the big picture. While most electricians want safety we simply don't want something that is going to make our jobs that much more of headache, drives up costs for customers/doing business, and is already vastly superceded by other simpler products/methods-that is why the opposition to afci and in turn thats why it is reasonable to object to individual fusing of joints. Actually when one looks at the amount of labor and cost involved for the fusing scheme, the afci located at the bc origin ,even with all its nuisance tripping, ends up making more sense- why fuse an individual joint when you ​could protect the whole circuit?

Because AFCIs do not protect the whole circuit. It is impossible for an AFCI to catch glowing connections something manufacturers claimed they would that turned out to be untrue. I am not only against AFCIs because of cost, but also because they do not provide any fire protection. They area a pure gimmick. That is the point I am trying to make.

The only cheap and effective way stop series arcing/loose connections is via GCI, the only way to catch over driven nails sloppy wiring is GFCI.

But here is the kicker. If electricians wired to code and took pride in their work we wouldn't even need any of those. Standard thermal magnetic breakers would be all thats needed. This is also why I am against gimmicks being added to the code because qualified personnel know what they are doing.

 

[donaldelectrician]

The last part of my last post was NOT an endorsement of the afci-it was meant to illustrate the fact that this individual fusing thing makes no sense up against the afci concept-it will be eviscerated. It will derided by the pro afci bunch (I'm fully aware of the irony of them doing this) as not cost effective, or practical and they will be correct-it is neither. They will claim that is unnecessary, not because it is actually unneccessary (it isn't needed), but because "the afci protects the whole circuit and is way cheaper."

Edison Based Fuses protect the whole circuit and are way cheaper and far more dependable .

When will we get the AFCI's kicked out of the NEC ?



Don

 

[growler]

When will we get the AFCI's kicked out of the NEC ?

With a little genetic engineering we may be able to get pigs to fly so there is always hope. :blink:

 

[templdl]

3/4 and

3/4 and

Because AFCIs do not protect the whole circuit. It is impossible for an AFCI to catch glowing connections something manufacturers claimed they would that turned out to be untrue. I am not only against AFCIs because of cost, but also because they do not provide any fire protection. They area a pure gimmick. That is the point I am trying to make.

The only cheap and effective way stop series arcing/loose connections is via GCI, the only way to catch over driven nails sloppy wiring is GFCI.

But here is the kicker. If electricians wired to code and took pride in their work we wouldn't even need any of those. Standard thermal magnetic breakers would be all thats needed. This is also why I am against gimmicks being added to the code because qualified personnel know what they are doing.

That would take a perfect person and Ii know of only person who is perfect.
I am confident that this forum is an example of good electricians and fry as hard as s we may with the thousands of items that are installed and connections made there is always a chance that even the best of use can mess up.
Yes, I am confident that the residential breaker would be adequate with one detail, mag trip calibration. As I said in other post those 3/4 se

 

[mbrooke]

The last part of my last post was NOT an endorsement of the afci-it was meant to illustrate the fact that this individual fusing thing makes no sense up against the afci concept-it will be eviscerated. It will derided by the pro afci bunch (I'm fully aware of the irony of them doing this) as not cost effective, or practical and they will be correct-it is neither. They will claim that is unnecessary, not because it is actually unneccessary (it isn't needed), but because "the afci protects the whole circuit and is way cheaper."

Its not even cheaper, an AFCI wont do squat. IF a person can make a splice correctly you dont need GCI.

Personally, and I might get flack, but in truth the real issue isn't even the NEC; its DIYs, handymen and lazy electricians behind nearly all electrocutions and most fires. DIYs are probably the worse.

For years I have given advice on DIY electrical forums and the stuff I see is beyond mortifying. Ive lost all faith. People do not join these forums to ask how to do something correctly, they join to reassure themselves in their ignorance. The other DIY posters are equally clueless giving away advice that is usually incorrect and often down right dangerous. More often then not they will argue with any electrician for who tries to give correct advice pages on end since they did it on their own home and it hasnt burned down yet. The DIY web articles arent helping either, they are full of disinformation.

Perfect example: DIYs will ask how to ground 3 prong outlets. Other DIYs will frequently tell them to drive a ground and connect to that. Im often left explaining they can not since a ground rod will not clear a fault. I get corrected by others who post a dozen links to internet articles that support the exact same thing. I tell them if anything install a GFCI try to convince them that will be easier since its to code. Nope, GFCI doesn't offer surge protection like a ground rod :roll: In the end those without any experience look right, I look like an idiot for pages on end while the OP drives a ground rod, HI's 3 prong tester lights up and the home gets sold as having an updated properly grounded electrical system :rant:

 

[mbrooke]

That would take a perfect person and Ii know of only person who is perfect.
I am confident that this forum is an example of good electricians and fry as hard as s we may with the tens of tho

Sorry, I dont understand. My bad :ashamed1:

 

[iwire]

The only cheap and effective way stop series arcing/loose connections is via GCI, the only way to catch over driven nails sloppy wiring is GFCI.

That is what is known as an opinion, not a fact.

But here is the kicker. If electricians wired to code and took pride in their work we wouldn't even need any of those. Standard thermal magnetic breakers would be all thats needed. This is also why I am against gimmicks being added to the code because qualified personnel know what they are doing.

So you feel only electricians do wiring in homes?

 

[templdl]

Sorry, I dont understand. My bad :ashamed1:

My pevious post boy sent prematurely.
That would take a perfect person and Ii know of only person who is perfect.
I am confident that this forum is an example of good electricians and try as hard as we may with the thousands of items that are installed and connections made there is always a chance that even the best of use can mess up.
Yes, I am also confident that the residential breaker would be adequate with one detail, mag trip calibration. As I said in other post those 3/4 and 1" per pole breakers are.manufactured by the tens of thousands where saving pennies is signficant. The therrmal elements are calibrated and tested but the magnetic elements are for all practical purposes are crude and engineered as a family, they at is that the mag trips are ,all the same, 15in, 30,and 30at. I believe if they tighten up ln the instantanease pickup that it would improve the product. Keep in mind that at the present time when you purchase a SqD QO it is their standard breaker with a a highmag option. The stand C-,H is equivalent to the SqD high mag with a low mag as optional. Mag calibrations are +-20% and you can count on them being toward the ,+20%.
It must be better if the manufacturer to invest more into the development of a better mag element that would more closely zero in on faults.

 

[iwire]

Sorry, I dont understand. My bad :ashamed1:

He is saying even those that care can make mistakes.