If you dont the answer to a specific question just say you dont know the answer. If you think you know the answer please provide info to back up your statement but dont engage in character assassination over a simple topic. That just makes you silly mr moderator
Re identification of neutral wire
- Thread starter Djelite
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It appears as though you have never gone through any of the past ROP's. Many of the answers you are looking for are there. It can be tedious but you will find it interesting just going through them. Go to the NFPA web site and start your adventure.
Roger
DrSparks
The Everlasting Know-it-all!
- Location
- Madison, WI, USA
- Occupation
- Master Electrician and General Contractor
I'm going to ask my supplier for a spool of #12 neutral wire. I wonder what he'll send me...How about "There is no such thing as a neutral wire. There are only wires that are used as the neutral conductor of a circuit."?
Until you connect it, it is not a neutral.
In addition, in most cases when a neutral exists the NEC requires that it be grounded.
But not all neutrals are grounded, and no all grounded conductors are neutrals.
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DrSparks
The Everlasting Know-it-all!
- Location
- Madison, WI, USA
- Occupation
- Master Electrician and General Contractor
If I remember my schooling, I believe it's because smaller wires have greater issues with current balance based on slight length differences. Larger diameter wire has less resistance and is more forgiving if your lengths vary slightly. I may be wrong.
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DrSparks
The Everlasting Know-it-all!
- Location
- Madison, WI, USA
- Occupation
- Master Electrician and General Contractor
It has nothing to do with safety. I believe the code panel decided having black #4 or larger wire durably marked in the field to identify it is reasonable and safe. I'm just stating what I believe to be the reason why they made the exception.
The Code panel consists of electrical contractors as well. They're goal is to keep everyone as safe as possible but also to not overly burden small businesses.
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- Chapel Hill, NC
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- Retired Electrical Contractor
I gave an answer or two which wasn't good enough for you. I am not attacking your character but you seem to be blowing steam here to get an answer that we can only guess at. Many agree it is a silly rule but you are going on with it..
Signed
Silly Moderator
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
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- Retired Electrical Contractor
btw, if everyone here, all of whom don't know the answer, then you would have no thread.
DrSparks
The Everlasting Know-it-all!
- Location
- Madison, WI, USA
- Occupation
- Master Electrician and General Contractor
Same with service wires. I still think it's insane (and standard practice in WI) that unfused SE cable is allowed to enter a building through the rim joist and into a disconnect or panel. I mean the chances of damage are slim... but I gotta have it in pipe to sleep at night.
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DrSparks
The Everlasting Know-it-all!
- Location
- Madison, WI, USA
- Occupation
- Master Electrician and General Contractor
I totally agree with you. Every good electrician should know the what AND the why.
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Dont assume you know what happens when you assume.......good day good chat
Good day
I never said anything about assuming, I said "it appears" that you have never gone through any of the ROP's". If you do decide to research through them you might find your answer. With that said, It also appears as though you want to argue just to argue.
Roger
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
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- EC
It kind of is exactly that with some things. AFCI's and some the recent GFCI changes the last couple editions are mostly because of information put out there for the code making panels to see by the manufacturers. They put a lot of effort into trying to prove why their products should be required in code for various applications, and really can't blame them for pushing their product. Problem is there is nobody putting similar time and money into any counter opinions so the code making panels see one sided view of information on such topics and are more easily convinced to approve such things.
Some of what this thread started off about is things that have been in code for longer time, some maybe had good reason when it first was put in there and maybe makes less sense today, but if you don't submit convincing enough information in a PI, and maybe even continue to lobby in other ways just to keep the idea in those CMP members minds between code making cycles, you likely don't get anywhere. If you are a manufacturer and it can effect your bottom line, you put more time and money into such lobbying, not worth the effort to most the rest of us.
BTW those CMP members as a general rule don't do testing themselves to determine what they should change in the code, they use the public input system that is in place as the format on how to proceed, but they are humans and their own experiences as well as other outside influences (said lobbying) still have some factor in this.
If you want to see formulas on determining what size of conductor is deemed safe for feeder taps as earlier brought up - you probably need to start by looking back to when the current wording in code was first introduced, then looking up the proposals that were submitted and/or other documentation that was used at that time to justify what ended up being printed. Chances are it was not research done by CMP's but rather research done by others and the CMP's made decisions based off the results submitted.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
you don't like what you see, you say "good day"....now who is being silly?
No one is arguing........ its not that serious. Me saying that i dont think your statement is correct is not an argument .... good day
What are we in 3rd grade. I posted a question people answered. I moderator asked why i keep asking questions. Im just answering any response to my post because not responding is rude. I never said i didnt like what i was hearing. So thats on you. I welcome any and all input wether i think its correct or not. At the end of the day im still looking to the answer to the why question. Reply to what you read not what you think you read
I never mention that the CMP did the search, i said the research was done. I wasnt looking for the formulas. The member i was chatting with was but again both great points. I agree 100%
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
It's because, as are the allowances for use of conductors in cable assemblies, that's how manufacturers make wire.
#6 and smaller gauges have been available in colors for decades, so they must be installed as code requires.
Until recently, nobody made larger wire in colors, so the code was written to allow us to identify them in the field.
That's what I meant by no excuse: They make smaller wires in colors, so there's no excuse for us to use the wrong color.
2-wire NM cable is made with white and black, so the code is written around them, with allowances to use the white as a hot.
The white wire is not always a neutral, it's just a white wire. It becomes a neutral only when it's landed on a neutral bus.
Think about thermostat wire and how it evolved: First, there was just red and white for micro-volt and later 24v heating.
Then, forced-air units were introduced, so they added a green wire; then AC, so they added yellow.
The wire colors are assigned as they are because that's how cables are made, not the other way around.
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