Re identification of neutral wire

[Djelite]

It seems like you have all the answers but I promise you, you don't. There are reason for many things in the code and because we may not know what they are doesn't mean that there is no reason. I agree the white wire rule is strange but it may have been put there for some reason years ago and now it remains.

If you think all the nec stuff is bogus then I invite you to come up with some substantiated changes and make comments to the nfpa for the next code cycle.

We all can complain about some of the rules and sometimes it does seem ridiculous but there is only one way to deal with it and that is to make a code change which anyone is welcome to proposif you dont know the answer to something i ask

It seems like you have all the answers but I promise you, you don't. There are reason for many things in the code and because we may not know what they are doesn't mean that there is no reason. I agree the white wire rule is strange but it may have been put there for some reason years ago and now it remains.

If you think all the nec stuff is bogus then I invite you to come up with some substantiated changes and make comments to the nfpa for the next code cycle.

We all can complain about some of the rules and sometimes it does seem ridiculous but there is only one way to deal with it and that is to make a code change which anyone is welcome to propose.

If you dont the answer to a specific question just say you dont know the answer. If you think you know the answer please provide info to back up your statement but dont engage in character assassination over a simple topic. That just makes you silly mr moderator

 

[roger]

I dont have all the answers thats why i asked the question. I never said the nec is bogus so re read my post and understand what you are reading before putting words in my mouth. I’ll like to know if im doing something what was the train of thought they had to reach this conclusion so i can understand why things are one way as oppose to another. I dont care what rules the nec comes up with, i really dont. Their job is to make the rules mine is to install as per those rules...... that doesnt mean i can ask why. The problem with the electrical industry is people dont know the WHY. This industry is an industry of installers not electricians we will never be better if we dont ask why

It appears as though you have never gone through any of the past ROP's. Many of the answers you are looking for are there. It can be tedious but you will find it interesting just going through them. Go to the NFPA web site and start your adventure.

Roger

 

[DrSparks]

How about "There is no such thing as a neutral wire. There are only wires that are used as the neutral conductor of a circuit."?
Until you connect it, it is not a neutral.
In addition, in most cases when a neutral exists the NEC requires that it be grounded.
But not all neutrals are grounded, and no all grounded conductors are neutrals.

I'm going to ask my supplier for a spool of #12 neutral wire. I wonder what he'll send me...

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

 

[DrSparks]

Why was 1/0 chosen as the minimum parallel size? Why was 10 foot chosen for the tap rule? Why was 6 chosen for the 6 handle rule? although you can probably conclude that going over a given quantity or length would pose an increased hazard for some reason,. Choosing where to draw the line is pretty much going to be arbitrary.

If I remember my schooling, I believe it's because smaller wires have greater issues with current balance based on slight length differences. Larger diameter wire has less resistance and is more forgiving if your lengths vary slightly. I may be wrong.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

 

[DrSparks]

What does that have to do with safety. One can make the availability argument with just about anything

It has nothing to do with safety. I believe the code panel decided having black #4 or larger wire durably marked in the field to identify it is reasonable and safe. I'm just stating what I believe to be the reason why they made the exception.

The Code panel consists of electrical contractors as well. They're goal is to keep everyone as safe as possible but also to not overly burden small businesses.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you dont the answer to a specific question just say you dont know the answer. If you think you know the answer please provide info to back up your statement but dont engage in character assassination over a simple topic. That just makes you silly mr moderator

I gave an answer or two which wasn't good enough for you. I am not attacking your character but you seem to be blowing steam here to get an answer that we can only guess at. Many agree it is a silly rule but you are going on with it..

Signed
Silly Moderator

 

[Dennis Alwon]

btw, if everyone here, all of whom don't know the answer, then you would have no thread.

 

[DrSparks]

This is more than likely the case. Outside taps can be of unlimited length.

Same with service wires. I still think it's insane (and standard practice in WI) that unfused SE cable is allowed to enter a building through the rim joist and into a disconnect or panel. I mean the chances of damage are slim... but I gotta have it in pipe to sleep at night.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

 

[DrSparks]

I dont have all the answers thats why i asked the question. I never said the nec is bogus so re read my post and understand what you are reading before putting words in my mouth. I’ll like to know if im doing something what was the train of thought they had to reach this conclusion so i can understand why things are one way as oppose to another. I dont care what rules the nec comes up with, i really dont. Their job is to make the rules mine is to install as per those rules...... that doesnt mean i can ask why. The problem with the electrical industry is people dont know the WHY. This industry is an industry of installers not electricians we will never be better if we dont ask why

I totally agree with you. Every good electrician should know the what AND the why.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

 

[Djelite]

It appears as though you have never gone through any of the past ROP's. Many of the answers you are looking for are there. It can be tedious but you will find it interesting just going through them. Go to the NFPA web site and start your adventure.

Rogeyou know what they say when

It appears as though you have never gone through any of the past ROP's. Many of the answers you are looking for are there. It can be tedious but you will find it interesting just going through them. Go to the NFPA web site and start your adventure.

Roger

Dont assume you know what happens when you assume.......good day good chat

 

[Djelite]

I gave an answer or two which wasn't good enough for you. I am not attacking your character but you seem to be blowing steam here to get an answer that we can only guess at. Many agree it is a silly rule but you are going on with it..

Signed
Silly Moderator

Good day

 

[roger]

Dont assume you know what happens when you assume.......good day good chat

I never said anything about assuming, I said "it appears" that you have never gone through any of the ROP's". If you do decide to research through them you might find your answer. With that said, It also appears as though you want to argue just to argue.

Roger

 

[Djelite]

Good day

 

[kwired]

Why not use color wire . Where im getting at is this the code book sometime changes its own rule accommodate certain parties as long as is still safe its like lobbying.

It kind of is exactly that with some things. AFCI's and some the recent GFCI changes the last couple editions are mostly because of information put out there for the code making panels to see by the manufacturers. They put a lot of effort into trying to prove why their products should be required in code for various applications, and really can't blame them for pushing their product. Problem is there is nobody putting similar time and money into any counter opinions so the code making panels see one sided view of information on such topics and are more easily convinced to approve such things.

Some of what this thread started off about is things that have been in code for longer time, some maybe had good reason when it first was put in there and maybe makes less sense today, but if you don't submit convincing enough information in a PI, and maybe even continue to lobby in other ways just to keep the idea in those CMP members minds between code making cycles, you likely don't get anywhere. If you are a manufacturer and it can effect your bottom line, you put more time and money into such lobbying, not worth the effort to most the rest of us.

BTW those CMP members as a general rule don't do testing themselves to determine what they should change in the code, they use the public input system that is in place as the format on how to proceed, but they are humans and their own experiences as well as other outside influences (said lobbying) still have some factor in this.



If you want to see formulas on determining what size of conductor is deemed safe for feeder taps as earlier brought up - you probably need to start by looking back to when the current wording in code was first introduced, then looking up the proposals that were submitted and/or other documentation that was used at that time to justify what ended up being printed. Chances are it was not research done by CMP's but rather research done by others and the CMP's made decisions based off the results submitted.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Good day

you don't like what you see, you say "good day"....now who is being silly?

 

[Djelite]

I never said anything about assuming, I said "it appears" that you have never gone through any of the ROP's". If you do decide to research through them you might find your answer. With that said, It also appears as though you want to argue just to argue.

Roger

No one is arguing........ its not that serious. Me saying that i dont think your statement is correct is not an argument .... good day

 

[Djelite]

Beautifully put

 

[Djelite]

you don't like what you see, you say "good day"....now who is being silly?

What are we in 3rd grade. I posted a question people answered. I moderator asked why i keep asking questions. Im just answering any response to my post because not responding is rude. I never said i didnt like what i was hearing. So thats on you. I welcome any and all input wether i think its correct or not. At the end of the day im still looking to the answer to the why question. Reply to what you read not what you think you read

 

[Djelite]

you don't like what you see, you say "good day"....now who is being silly?

It kind of is exactly that with some things. AFCI's and some the recent GFCI changes the last couple editions are mostly because of information put out there for the code making panels to see by the manufacturers. They put a lot of effort into trying to prove why their products should be required in code for various applications, and really can't blame them for pushing their product. Problem is there is nobody putting similar time and money into any counter opinions so the code making panels see one sided view of information on such topics and are more easily convinced to approve such things.

Some of what this thread started off about is things that have been in code for longer time, some maybe had good reason when it first was put in there and maybe makes less sense today, but if you don't submit convincing enough information in a PI, and maybe even continue to lobby in other ways just to keep the idea in those CMP members minds between code making cycles, you likely don't get anywhere. If you are a manufacturer and it can effect your bottom line, you put more time and money into such lobbying, not worth the effort to most the rest of us.

BTW those CMP members as a general rule don't do testing themselves to determine what they should change in the code, they use the public input system that is in place as the format on how to proceed, but they are humans and their own experiences as well as other outside influences (said lobbying) still have some factor in this.



If you want to see formulas on determining what size of conductor is deemed safe for feeder taps as earlier brought up - you probably need to start by looking back to when the current wording in code was first introduced, then looking up the proposals that were submitted and/or other documentation that was used at that time to justify what ended up being printed. Chances are it was not research done by CMP's but rather research done by others and the CMP's made decisions based off the results submitted.

I never mention that the CMP did the search, i said the research was done. I wasnt looking for the formulas. The member i was chatting with was but again both great points. I agree 100%

 

[LarryFine]

White #6 and smaller must be used as a grounded conductor in conduits because there is no excuse for not doing so.......is not a valid reason

It's because, as are the allowances for use of conductors in cable assemblies, that's how manufacturers make wire.

#6 and smaller gauges have been available in colors for decades, so they must be installed as code requires.

Until recently, nobody made larger wire in colors, so the code was written to allow us to identify them in the field.

That's what I meant by no excuse: They make smaller wires in colors, so there's no excuse for us to use the wrong color.


2-wire NM cable is made with white and black, so the code is written around them, with allowances to use the white as a hot.

The white wire is not always a neutral, it's just a white wire. It becomes a neutral only when it's landed on a neutral bus.


Think about thermostat wire and how it evolved: First, there was just red and white for micro-volt and later 24v heating.

Then, forced-air units were introduced, so they added a green wire; then AC, so they added yellow.

The wire colors are assigned as they are because that's how cables are made, not the other way around.