readily accessible

[FionaZuppa]

I must beg to disagree. Last week I climbed two fixed ladders, each at least 15 feet high, in order to reach two separate mezzanine levels related to a tenant improvement project. At each mezzanine level there were 480V panels, transformers, and 120V panels. Off hand, I do not know whether anything up there was required to be "readily accessible." But I would say that they were, in fact, "readily accessible."

I must beg to disagree with you
i would call that "accessible" if i am to use art 100 defs.

staircases, perhaps escalators & elevators too, seem to be excluded by NEC.

"...you got to be able to walk to it..." - Mike Holt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp136rdaTXc

 

[charlie b]

i would call that "accessible" if i am to use art 100 defs.

If the intent of the definition of "readily accessible" were to exclude permanent ladders, then they would not have said "portable ladders." They would have just said "ladders." I interpret the "and so forth" as meaning other portable or mobile things, such as step stools, scaffolding, or scissors lifts.

I don't have time right now to watch the MH video. I will say, blindly if I must, that if I have to climb a set of stairs to get to an item, then my opinion is that that stair case does not make the item not readily accessible.

 

[FionaZuppa]

If the intent of the definition of "readily accessible" were to exclude permanent ladders, then they would not have said "portable ladders." They would have just said "ladders." I interpret the "and so forth" as meaning other portable or mobile things, such as step stools, scaffolding, or scissors lifts.

I don't have time right now to watch the MH video. I will say, blindly if I must, that if I have to climb a set of stairs to get to an item, then my opinion is that that stair case does not make the item not readily accessible.

not sure why you think "and so forth" applies to just ladders.

Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

the def uses "as example" in its context.

what it says is:

such as to use tools,
such as to climb over or remove obstacles,
such as to resort to portable ladders,
and so forth.

i take "and so forth" to mean "and anything else like this".

i take all of it to mean exactly what Mike Holt says, by walking to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp136rdaTXc

 

[charlie b]

staircases, perhaps escalators & elevators too, seem to be excluded by NEC.

Mike's video (from your earlier link) disagrees with this statement. He talked about a service disconnect on the second floor, with a staircase leading up to it. He and his team clearly agreed that that service disconnect was readily accessible. I gather that his statement regarding the ability to walk to it includes the ability to walk up a flight of stairs.

You could claim that a person does not walk up a permanent ladder, but rather climbs it. True, but irrelevant. The "walk to it" was Mike's way of saying things. It is not part of the code definition. The phrase "portable ladder" is part of the code, and a permanent ladder is not.

 

[K8MHZ]

It would be kind of tough to have anything on a roof required to be readily accessible if permanent ladders were not allowed.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Mike's video (from your earlier link) disagrees with this statement. He talked about a service disconnect on the second floor, with a staircase leading up to it. He and his team clearly agreed that that service disconnect was readily accessible. I gather that his statement regarding the ability to walk to it includes the ability to walk up a flight of stairs.

You could claim that a person does not walk up a permanent ladder, but rather climbs it. True, but irrelevant. The "walk to it" was Mike's way of saying things. It is not part of the code definition. The phrase "portable ladder" is part of the code, and a permanent ladder is not.

what then do you apply "and so forth" to? just ladders?

and i dont disagree with you about the video, walking up stairs to the device is "readily accessible". an escalator can be walked, an elevator i am not sure what they think of that, my guess is no because you have to wait for an elevator, but stairs are always there with elevators. locked doors to get there is also not an issue for readily-accessible.

ladders to roofs, not readily-accessible, but accessible.

Mike's comment was referring to "readily accessible", not the 2nd floor by stairs. in reference to "readily-accessible" he said "you got to be able to walk to it"............., thus what he was showing is "readily accessible".

seems the test is, if you cant walk to it, then its not "readily-accessible" (although walk-to is not the only test, the rest of the def still applies).

 

[charlie b]

seems the test is, if you cant walk to it, then its not "readily-accessible" (although walk-to is not the only test, the rest of the def still applies).

Mike is not the code. Mike would tell you that himself. The code says nothing about walking to the item. Please don't get too fond of the "walk" concept.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Mike is not the code. Mike would tell you that himself. The code says nothing about walking to the item. Please don't get too fond of the "walk" concept.

it wasnt just Mike, it was also the panel he was talking to, etc. they agreed with him.

1st start by breaking down art 100 definition. an english major might be needed for validation/clarity or the definition, my grammatic's in English not so great, etc.

 

[iwire]

It would be kind of tough to have anything on a roof required to be readily accessible if permanent ladders were not allowed.

:thumbsup:

 

[charlie b]

not sure why you think "and so forth" applies to just ladders. . . . i take "and so forth" to mean "and anything else like this".

Since the "Oxford Comma" backs you up on this point, I will concede it. Where that takes me, however, is,

• Anything else like using tools (which using a permanent ladder is not),
• Anything else like climbing over or moving obstacles (which using a permanent ladder is not),
• Anything else like resorting to portable ladders (which using a permanent ladder is not).

 

[charlie b]

it wasnt just Mike, it was also the panel he was talking to, etc. they agreed with him.

Mike invited me to be a member of just such a panel. They too are not the code.

 

[Carultch]

If you have to move anything out of the way, or if you have to obtain any manufactured item other than a key before you can get to the equipment in question, it is not readily accessible. Even if you can use a natural item like a stick or a rock, in place of that manufactured tool, that still makes it not readily accessible. By contrast, if you can walk to it, climb to it, crawl to it, open doors with hand latches to get to it, or anything else that you can do with the permanent building fixtures, the occasional key, and your body alone; then it is readily accessible.

The "remove obstacles" is a wildcard, when you have no idea what the owner will end up putting in the way.

 

[charlie b]

The "remove obstacles" is a wildcard, when you have no idea what the owner will end up putting in the way.

When your hand reaches for the object of interest, it displaces air. I suppose that means that air was an obstacle that you had to move out of the way. So, in fact, nothing can ever be readily accessible. Sigh. :roll:

 

[K8MHZ]

The "remove obstacles" is a wildcard, when you have no idea what the owner will end up putting in the way.

Like this?

View attachment 17142

 

[mjf]

"to climb over or remove
obstacles,"

A garbage can would be an obstacle.

Well shoot, no GFCI receptacle is accessible if somethings plugged into it I guess.....the plug end would be an obstacle that needs to be removed:slaphead:

 

[Carultch]

When your hand reaches for the object of interest, it displaces air. I suppose that means that air was an obstacle that you had to move out of the way. So, in fact, nothing can ever be readily accessible. Sigh. :roll:

Right. But you don't have to consciously think about where to put that air, when you do so.

Like this?

Precisely.

Although, storing stuff in workspace is something that we know is not allowed, and ideally would be labeled and "Storage not permitted within 36 inches (6 floor tiles) of this equipment", or something similar. A sink cabinet by contrast, is normally used for storage. Only about 1% of the back wall square inches would be occupied by the receptacle. Unlike all of the back wall occupied by panelboards.

 

[GoldDigger]

Right. But you don't have to consciously think about where to put that air, when you do so.

I often do not consciously think about where to put much solider objects when clawing them out of the way to get to something. That is for later.

 

[jim dungar]

The "remove obstacles" is a wildcard, when you have no idea what the owner will end up putting in the way.

If the electrical closet is empty when the AHJ issues the permit, who enforces the 'keep clear' rules later on? OSHA, the fire inspector, maybe it is a visiting electrician? What enforcement can be performed?
If you get to a jobsite and there is a broom in the way of the panel, what happens next? Do you demand a complete work stoppage and an OSHA investigation? Do you notify some legal or criminal authority? Do you stop accepting work from this customer? Do you charge them for clearing out the junk, so you can do the job you were hired for?

 

[FionaZuppa]

Since the "Oxford Comma" backs you up on this point, I will concede it. Where that takes me, however, is,

• Anything else like using tools (which using a permanent ladder is not),
• Anything else like climbing over or moving obstacles (which using a permanent ladder is not),
• Anything else like resorting to portable ladders (which using a permanent ladder is not).

i am sure there are many many things the NEC just cant list, way too many, so i took ",and so forth" to have holistic meaning in the context of how it is being used. perhaps i am wrong, i will research it a bit more.

i then stumbled onto Mike's video, which seems to back my understanding of the art 100 def.

but to refute your list, climbing is not walking. in my view of it, you should be able to walk right up to any readily-accessible item, open a door if need be, and access it.

maybe this is what the art 100 def should say:

you should be able to walk up to any readily-accessible item, open a door if need be, and access it. having to climb, move objects, or where clearances are not proper, will deem it not-readily-accessible.

 

[ActionDave]

...but to refute your list, climbing is not walking. in my view of it, you should be able to walk right up to any readily-accessible item, open a door if need be, and access it.

maybe this is what the art 100 def should say:
you should be able to walk up to any readily-accessible item, open a door if need be, and access it. having to climb, move objects, or where clearances are not proper, will deem it not-readily-accessible.

Climbing is not walking? So any building with stairs has no readily accessible items?

Open a door? Is that the door into the building? the second door past the vestibule? the door into the hallway? the door into the room? the door on the panel?