readily accessible

[FionaZuppa]

Note that the definition specifically states that if you don't have to resort to a PORTABLE ladder it is readily accessible. A fixed in place ladder is not portable. Therefore by simple English grammar rules, if there is a fixed ladder giving one access, it is readily accessible.

and you take "and so forth" to mean what in your view of simple English. btw, you do know that the statement "simple English" is a oxymoron, yes?

the English teacher already provided us the meaning of the art 100 def. so now you are refuting the English teacher ??

so is a rope with knots acceptable? its fixed in place, can be climbed. how about a fixed rope ladder? how about pull down stairs into attic or 2nd level? what about a fixed bucket by which you can stand on and then climb to 2nd level or rooftop? what about a fixed cable that you can zipline from one floor to the next? what about a portable ladder that is chained in place?

You should not need any special equipment or have to make a great effort to get there.

a ladder needs to be climbed. climbing falls into the "great effort" area. does shifting a resi dryer require much effort??


its obvious the art 100 def needs fixing, or exclusion verbiage added. the mention of portable ladder was probably meant in context of having to bring with you, or to go fetch it, and not in the context of "its a portable ladder".

 

[charlie b]

I think that Mr. Peterson and I understand the language well enough to not have to learn from the English teacher. I believe we both understand that the "and so forth" means things that are similar to the items on the list. But where you and I disagree is the issue of whether a portable ladder and a permanent ladder are similar, in the intended context of the phase "and so forth." I think they are not. I said a few posts ago why I thought they were different. It seems to me that you consider them similar for no better reason than they are both ladders and you have to climb each of them vertically and with the use of your hands. That is not enough for me. I see that one can be climbed "quickly" (that word is in the definition of readily accessible), and the other cannot be climbed until you find it and bring it to the location. That makes it different enough in my mind.

 

[charlie b]

a ladder needs to be climbed. climbing falls into the "great effort" area. does shifting a resi dryer require much effort??

I am 63 years old and "a tad" overweight. I also have a problem with my right knee. And yet I was able to climb two vertical ladders last week, each about 15-20 feet high. If I could do that, I would not have called it a "great effort."

 

[FionaZuppa]

I think that Mr. Peterson and I understand the language well enough to not have to learn from the English teacher. I believe we both understand that the "and so forth" means things that are similar to the items on the list. But where you and I disagree is the issue of whether a portable ladder and a permanent ladder are similar, in the intended context of the phase "and so forth." I think they are not. I said a few posts ago why I thought they were different. It seems to me that you consider them similar for no better reason than they are both ladders and you have to climb each of them vertically and with the use of your hands. That is not enough for me. I see that one can be climbed "quickly" (that word is in the definition of readily accessible), and the other cannot be climbed until you find it and bring it to the location. That makes it different enough in my mind.

which is why i said, in the def context "portable ladder" might mean items you would need to bring with or go fetch.

so perm items see ok to you.

what about a rope with knots? acceptable? its fixed in place, can be climbed rather quickly, i can climb a 20ft knot rope rather "quickly". how about a fixed rope ladder? how about pull down stairs into attic or 2nd level? what about a fixed bucket by which you can stand on and then climb to 2nd level or rooftop? what about a fixed cable that you can zipline from one floor to the next? what about a portable ladder that is chained in place (it doesnt need to be fetched)?


a fixed ladder that is 150ft high?? ez to climb ?

 

[wwhitney]

FionaZuppa, the definition writers took the extra effort to add the word "portable" to the definition. If they wanted to include all ladders, they would have simply taken the economy to leave out the word portable. By choosing to include the extra modifier "portable", they clearly wished to distinguish between portable ladders and fixed in place ladders. So the choice of the word "portable" implies that fixed ladders are OK. (I recall this logic is commonly understood in legal circles and has a specific name).

The general phrase "and so forth" needs to be read in the context of the rest of the definition. The choice to exclude only "portable" ladders informs the breadth of the phrase "and so forth".

Cheers, Wayne

 

[FionaZuppa]

FionaZuppa, the definition writers took the extra effort to add the word "portable" to the definition. If they wanted to include all ladders, they would have simply taken the economy to leave out the word portable. By choosing to include the extra modifier "portable", they clearly wished to distinguish between portable ladders and fixed in place ladders. So the choice of the word "portable" implies that fixed ladders are OK. (I recall this logic is commonly understood in legal circles and has a specific name).

The general phrase "and so forth" needs to be read in the context of the rest of the definition. The choice to exclude only "portable" ladders informs the breadth of the phrase "and so forth".

Cheers, Wayne

so a 150ft tall fixed ladder is ok?

i get what they intended to mean, which is not clearly put into words.
from the evidence i have, the intention was to say "without additional effort", like climbing, or having to go fetch an object, or having to move stuff around. if they dont mean climbing, then why not just say so, ".... and except for climbing."

but excluding "climbing" is in direct conflict with the definition itself, so i cannot see where climbing can be an exception.

what Mike Holt says in his video and the panel agreeing, with English teaching breaking it down, climbing is not an exception.

 

[petersonra]

There are other things in play (OSHA for one) that would prohibit the use of a knotted rope. Nor would OSHA allow you to climb on something that is not a platform or a ladder or otherwise designed to be used in that way.

You seem to forget that the NEC is not every code and rule a worker is required to abide by.

You also can't go out on the street, shoot ten people to death, and stack the bodies up as a way to climb up to the panel. But the NEC does not need to prohibit this since it is already prohibited elsewhere.

And yes, a 150 foot high ladder is OK as long as it is caged and the guy climbing is properly trained and outfitted for such a climb.

There is nothing in the code that requires someone in a wheelchair or on crutches has to be able to get to it to be considered readily accessible.

 

[charlie b]

so a 150ft tall fixed ladder is ok?

We don't need to account for things that will never happen. OSHA, for one, would forbid that. Nobody is going to attempt to provide access to a panel via a rope or a rope ladder. So let's please stay within the realm of reality.

what Mike Holt says in his video and the panel agreeing, with English teaching breaking it down, climbing is not an exception.

What Mike said, and what his panel agreed to, is that an item can be readily accessible, even if you have to walk up a flight of stairs to get to it. Permanent ladders were not addressed in his video. He did mention the ability to walk to an object. But he would tell you in a flash that that was a simplification and was not intended to replace code language.

Whatever an English teacher might tell you about what a three word phrase should mean, the authors of the NEC have their own rule book on how to word statements, which words to choose, and how to be consistent in the language of the code. The fact that the definition explicitly names portable ladders, and does not merely name ladders, has meaning.

 

[JFletcher]

We are having a healthy debate at my office with regards to what is a readily accessible space is .The scenario is receptacle under the kitchen sink for a dishwasher , I say the GFCI protection must come from somewhere other than a GFCI rec. under the sink because that would not be a readily accessible space. I am interested to hear some other opinions. Thank you

Regardless the NEC definition, there will ALWAYS be a ton o cleaning supplies, sacks of potatoes, loaded mouse traps, racks, shelves, whips to garbage disposals, plumbing, etc. under MOST sinks. If you've ever changed out a sink faucet from such spaces, you know they are the antithesis of "readily available", more like "if you had a previous life as a contortionist, and are smaller than 5'8", 150lbs, you *should* be able to do it, once you remove all the junk from your way."


"You also can't go out on the street, shoot ten people to death, and stack the bodies up as a way to climb up to the panel."

:lol::lol:

 

[GoldDigger]

"You also can't go out on the street, shoot ten people to death, and stack the bodies up as a way to climb up to the panel."

:lol::lol:

Because shooting them requires using a tool. If you use manual strangulation instead, and bring them in before strangling them so you do not have to move the bodies, you might be OK. :angel:

 

[Ponchik]

why would opening a door and pressing GFI button not be "readily-accessible"?

the account for all of the under-sink crud that will go there as obstacles at some point cannot be controlled.

if i mount a panel on wall where a washer and dryer may sit in front of, but the panel is high enough so that the appliances do not block panel door, and at time for final inspection there exists no appliances, if the panel is required to be "readily-accessible", does it pass inspection? It may or may not.

if i am mounting a new panel behind/above existing washer/dryer, i move the appliances to the side of the room, i install panel, then request final inspection. does it pass (should it)? NEC says it should, the AHJ will likely say otherwise.It may or may not.

Neither can be the amount stuff that goes on top of some kitchen counters. I have seen kitchens that because of mount of stuff on the counter the top was not visible. But at the time of inspection it passed. So at the time of inspection for an under cabinet GFCI it should pass. But a GFCI behind a fridge or dishwasher will not pass even at the time fo inspection there is no appliance.

Common sense and not blowing things out of proportion goes a long way.

 

[FionaZuppa]

in the video Mike doesnt shows the full art 100 def. will need him to clarify what he meant by "as long as you can walk to it".

 

[user 100]

in the video Mike doesnt shows the full art 100 def. will need him to clarify what he meant by "as long as you can walk to it".

Explained well enough here: (among various other posts)
VVVVVVVVVV

Mike's video (from your earlier link) disagrees with this statement. He talked about a service disconnect on the second floor, with a staircase leading up to it. He and his team clearly agreed that that service disconnect was readily accessible. I gather that his statement regarding the ability to walk to it includes the ability to walk up a flight of stairs.

You could claim that a person does not walk up a permanent ladder, but rather climbs it. True, but irrelevant. The "walk to it" was Mike's way of saying things. It is not part of the code definition. The phrase "portable ladder" is part of the code, and a permanent ladder is not.

Seems pretty clear to me- if something does not require a certain amount of effort to reach it, it is readily accessible and the code tells us what effort has to expended to NOT meet that definition....

The permanent ladder/stair comparison is fair b/c they are similiar. Think about the general definition of "climb". When you climb (yes, I know- you "climb" ladders) something you are generally going to be using your arms to pull your weight up. But you dont do that most of the time when you use a ladder- you just simply walk up the thing while using your hands as a brace/ladder as a grip- much like many do when they walk up a staircase and grip the stair rail.

The NEC cannot cover every angle here. A Permanent ladder does not normally have an obstacle that must be removed- the ladder (like the stairs) itself is merely the path to the equipment. Of course not everybody can use a ladder or stairs- doesn't mean the equipment isn't readily accessible ever- a locked door makes equipment impossible to access except for those who possess the key to that lock, yet the equipment in the locked room is considered readily accessible.

 

[petersonra]

But a GFCI behind a fridge or dishwasher will not pass even at the time fo inspection there is no appliance.

On what basis would such an install fail? The inspector cannot fail an install based on some possible violation down the road.

 

[kwired]

so a 150ft tall fixed ladder is ok?

i get what they intended to mean, which is not clearly put into words.
from the evidence i have, the intention was to say "without additional effort", like climbing, or having to go fetch an object, or having to move stuff around. if they dont mean climbing, then why not just say so, ".... and except for climbing."

but excluding "climbing" is in direct conflict with the definition itself, so i cannot see where climbing can be an exception.

what Mike Holt says in his video and the panel agreeing, with English teaching breaking it down, climbing is not an exception.

How about 120 volt receptacle located at top level of a 150 foot tall grain elevator? Very common if you are around those things, also outdoors so GFCI (needing ready access) is required. Put the GFCI 150+ feet away at ground level may introduce false tripping just from capacitive coupling. And you don't want to have to climb all the way down just to reset it when it trips while you are using it either.

Many of these elevators also have radio transmitters, wifi equipment, etc. mounted at the top just because it saves building a separate tower for such items, all of which usually plug into a 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacle.

 

[FionaZuppa]

A Permanent ladder does not normally have an obstacle that must be removed- the ladder (like the stairs) itself is merely the path to the equipment. Of course not everybody can use a ladder or stairs- doesn't mean the equipment isn't readily accessible ever- a locked door makes equipment impossible to access except for those who possess the key to that lock, yet the equipment in the locked room is considered readily accessible.

what is a perm ladder? one bolted on? thats not exactly permanent. what about a ladder that is chained to the decking? certainly a ladder that is welded between boat decks is perm.

locked items are not being discussed here.

perhaps my point is being missed. 1) the verbiage as written does not say, in English, what is apparently is meant, and 2) if something bad happens the AHJ may have some risk because as-is the art 100 def has ambiguity in it, and 3) its a very bad idea to have a verbiage that is only understood by a small subset of folks, with same verbiage being contradicted or questionable by others.

so, i went to a English teacher, now i will take the definition and a scenario to a lawyer friend of mine to see what he says.

i just dont see how climbing a shallow angle or vertical perm ladder is considered "low effort" in the context of art 100 def.

 

[mwm1752]

But a GFCI behind a fridge or dishwasher will not pass even at the time fo inspection there is no appliance.

Common sense and not blowing things out of proportion goes a long way.

On what basis would such an install fail? The inspector cannot fail an install based on some possible violation down the road.

So glad to see there are those out there that think inspectors are robots you know not thinking, evaluating, making choices. I'd bet by the time you take it to court, that appliance in which a dedicated location was determined for, would be installed. Though your robot inclination of possible which is more probable/ most likely is by the black & white letters true(is readily accessible at the time of inspection). Never have this problem when installers use a bit of common sense when interpreting the meaning of code.

 

[K8MHZ]

so, i went to a English teacher, now i will take the definition and a scenario to a lawyer friend of mine to see what he says.

And their definitions are fine if they are the ones you need a green sticker from.

what is a perm ladder? one bolted on? thats not exactly permanent.

The term for a non-portable ladder is a 'fixed ladder', as it is affixed, or bolted, in place. So any definition for 'permanent' is moot.

 

[iwire]

what is a perm ladder? one bolted on? thats not exactly permanent. what about a ladder that is chained to the decking? certainly a ladder that is welded between boat decks is perm.

Nothing in this world is permanent so your question is one that is answered by the AHJ on a daily basis.

An AHJ could decide a ladder chained in place is permanent it is up to them not up to me and not up to you.

perhaps my point is being missed. 1) the verbiage as written does not say, in English, what is apparently is meant,

That is your opinion, it is not a fact.

and 2) if something bad happens the AHJ may have some risk because as-is the art 100 def has ambiguity in it, and

Hey, here is a news flash for you, the NEC is loaded with ambiguity.

When is equipment subject to 'physical damage'? Judgment call by the AHJ.

What is 'nearest the point of entrance'? Judgment call by the AHJ.

When is something 'likely to become energized'? Judgment call by the AHJ.

3) its a very bad idea to have a verbiage that is only understood by a small subset of folks, with same verbiage being contradicted or questionable by others.

When the subset is so small it only includes subjects with the letters FionaZuppa in its description it is not an issue that the NEC needs to address.

i just dont see how climbing a shallow angle or vertical perm ladder is considered "low effort" in the context of art 100 def.

And I just don't see many of those words in the NEC definitions so they are irrelevant.

 

[Carultch]

what is a perm ladder? one bolted on? thats not exactly permanent. what about a ladder that is chained to the decking? certainly a ladder that is welded between boat decks is perm.

locked items are not being discussed here.

If it is expected to remain in place and be functional for as long as the building will be usable, it is "permanent" as far as our use of the word is concerned.