readily accessible

[FionaZuppa]

Climbing is not walking? So any building with stairs has no readily accessible items?

Open a door? Is that the door into the building? the second door past the vestibule? the door into the hallway? the door into the room? the door on the panel?

50 doors may be an issue, a few doors (locked or unlocked) is not an issue. lockouts are not an issue.

but, you ??'d climbing

walk (verb) - "to move along on foot"


climb (verb) - "to go upward or raise oneself especially by grasping or clutching with the hands"

i think there is clear diff between the two. can you walk up a perm ladder w/o using your hands?

 

[GoldDigger]

50 doors may be an issue, a few doors (locked or unlocked) is not an issue. lockouts are not an issue.

but, you ??'d climbing



i think there is clear diff between the two. can you walk up a perm ladder w/o using your hands?

If it is a companionway type ladder, or anything but straight vertical, most people can, they just wisely choose not to.

You can also climb stairs or climb a hill without using your hands at all.

 

[Ponchik]

If removing stuff from the lower cabinets makes the GFCI not readily accessible, then I guess the toaster in front of the counter GFCI will be a violation as well?

It is for sure a AHJ call. But an AHJ that has common sense.

 

[ActionDave]

50 doors may be an issue, a few doors (locked or unlocked) is not an issue. lockouts are not an issue.

maybe this is what the art 100 def should say:
you should be able to walk up to any readily-accessible item, open a door if need be, and access it....

Make up your mind.

but, you ??'d climbing

climb (verb) - "to go upward or raise oneself especially by grasping or clutching with the hands"
i think there is clear diff between the two. can you walk up a perm ladder w/o using your hands?

That's one way to describe it.

 

[FionaZuppa]

If removing stuff from the lower cabinets makes the GFCI not readily accessible, then I guess the toaster in front of the counter GFCI will be a violation as well?

It is for sure a AHJ call. But an AHJ that has common sense.

hmy: we got past the obstacles questions many posts back.

You can also climb stairs or climb a hill without using your hands at all.

i suspect, if you are not grasping/clutching with hands, you are not climbing.

can you shoot a video with your "smart" phone, i'd like to see a vertical ladder "climb" w/o you using your hands

 

[FionaZuppa]

if you look at OSHA defs, ladders are to be climbed, stairs are not.

its just more evidence that ladders in general cannot be used to reach/access "readily-accessible" equipment/device. the best you get with a "ladder" is "accessible".

 

[iwire]

if you look at OSHA defs, ladders are to be climbed, stairs are not.

its just more evidence that ladders in general cannot be used to reach/access "readily-accessible" equipment/device. the best you get with a "ladder" is "accessible".

:lol:

 

[GoldDigger]

...can you shoot a video with your "smart" phone, i'd like to see a vertical ladder "climb" w/o you using your hands [/FONT]

I specifically excluded vertical ladders.
With respect to climbing, with or without hands; not with respect to readily accessible or not.

 

[iwire]

I specifically excluded vertical ladders.
With respect to climbing, with or without hands; not with respect to readily accessible or not.

I would stick with the words in the NEC and I see nothing about hands in there.

 

[mwm1752]

Charlie made a statement of using a permanent ladder to mezzadine levels in which I assume the OCPD had compliant clearances around & he was no longer on the ladder but on a flat surface - this clearly does IMO comply with ready accessibility as once your are on the floor level the OCPD are able to be reached per definition. Flat roofs that have OCPD on them may or may not have permanent ladders to them but once up there clearances shall be maintained for ready access.

We cannot control what is placed in front of "obvious" clear spaces designed as such but not all ready accessible devices are installed in obvious clear spaces so using a bit of sensible thought comes into play -- we just do not agree on sensible thought sometimes

 

[Ponchik]

hmy: we got past the obstacles questions many posts back.

The question went from "GFCI accessibility" to "hands free ladder climbing skills" without addressing the OP question. Or at least that how I see it.

 

[mwm1752]

The question went from "GFCI accessibility" to "hands free ladder climbing skills" without addressing the OP question. Or at least that how I see it.

We cannot control what is placed in front of "obvious" clear spaces designed as such but not all ready accessible devices are installed in obvious clear spaces so using a bit of sensible thought comes into play -- we just do not agree on sensible thought sometimes -- comment includes GFI reset button under countertop sink & see post 17# when addressing OP?

 

[retirede]

Charlie made a statement of using a permanent ladder to mezzadine levels in which I assume the OCPD had compliant clearances around & he was no longer on the ladder but on a flat surface - this clearly does IMO comply with ready accessibility as once your are on the floor level the OCPD are able to be reached per definition. Flat roofs that have OCPD on them may or may not have permanent ladders to them but once up there clearances shall be maintained for ready access.

We cannot control what is placed in front of "obvious" clear spaces designed as such but not all ready accessible devices are installed in obvious clear spaces so using a bit of sensible thought comes into play -- we just do not agree on sensible thought sometimes

I seem to remember this exact topic being presented at an EC&M code conference I attended, admittedly many years ago. The bottom line was that if the access to the mezzanine was permanently installed, the area could be considered readily accessible if all other provisions (such as clearances) were met. The ladder vs stairs never entered the picture.

Basically, if someone needs ready access, they cannot be expected to go hunt for a ladder or portable stairs, or whatever.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[FionaZuppa]

the EC&M may have such intentions, but as written into NEC code it would fail in court if it ever got there.

i got an answer from an English teacher. after reviewing the art 100 def here's what it means.

"You should not need any special equipment or have to make a great effort to get there. And so forth is like et cetera."

thus, ",and so forth." = ",et cetera."


now, i go lookup the meaning of etc:

et cetera (adverb) - used at the end of a list to indicate that further, similar items are included.

to me, a fixed ladder is similar to a portable ladder (they are all ladders), and are prohibited (should be) for use to access "readily-accessible" stuff.


if you want to argue that some fixed stuff is stairs and not ladders, then so be it, stairs are not ladders.

If the fixed ladder is an exception, then the NEC should clearly make note of that, or, should re-think the def verbiage.
:thumbsup:

 

[iwire]

Too funny

 

[FionaZuppa]

The question went from "GFCI accessibility" to "hands free ladder climbing skills" without addressing the OP question. Or at least that how I see it.

why would opening a door and pressing GFI button not be "readily-accessible"?

the account for all of the under-sink crud that will go there as obstacles at some point cannot be controlled.

if i mount a panel on wall where a washer and dryer may sit in front of, but the panel is high enough so that the appliances do not block panel door, and at time for final inspection there exists no appliances, if the panel is required to be "readily-accessible", does it pass inspection?

if i am mounting a new panel behind/above existing washer/dryer, i move the appliances to the side of the room, i install panel, then request final inspection. does it pass (should it)? NEC says it should, the AHJ will likely say otherwise.

 

[charlie b]

i think there is clear diff between the two. can you walk up a perm ladder w/o using your hands?

I think it would help us make progress in this discussion if you would, at least temporarily, take the word "walk" out of your vocabulary. That word does not appear in the article 100 definition of readily accessible, and it is not relevant to this discussion at all. I can climb a stair case, but I use the handrail for safety purposes (I have knee issues). I can climb a ladder (I did last week, and I did use both hands, again for safety reasons - the "three point rule" to be specific). The key difference between a portable ladder (which is excluded) and a permanent ladder (which is not excluded) is that you don't have to waste time looking for the later ladder, hoping that nobody took it away and stored it somewhere without telling anyone.

 

[charlie b]

if i mount a panel on wall where a washer and dryer may sit in front of, but the panel is high enough so that the appliances do not block panel door, and at time for final inspection there exists no appliances, if the panel is required to be "readily-accessible", does it pass inspection?

if i am mounting a new panel behind/above existing washer/dryer, i move the appliances to the side of the room, i install panel, then request final inspection. does it pass (should it)? NEC says it should, the AHJ will likely say otherwise.

In both of these examples, the connections for the washer and the dryer would be in evidence. The inspector should be able to see that they are immediately below a panel, and should fail the inspection. The failure would be on the basis of working clearance, as a minimum. If the panel or its breakers are required to be readily accessible for some reason, then the installation should fail on that basis as well.

 

[petersonra]

Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being
reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections
without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite
to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable
ladders, and so forth.

Note that the definition specifically states that if you don't have to resort to a PORTABLE ladder it is readily accessible. A fixed in place ladder is not portable. Therefore by simple English grammar rules, if there is a fixed ladder giving one access, it is readily accessible.

 

[petersonra]

In both of these examples, the connections for the washer and the dryer would be in evidence. The inspector should be able to see that they are immediately below a panel, and should fail the inspection. The failure would be on the basis of working clearance, as a minimum. If the panel or its breakers are required to be readily accessible for some reason, then the installation should fail on that basis as well.

I don't see how the inspector can fail an inspection for something that might or might not happen down the road.

The inspector might be able to fail the installation if the water connection is within the required clear space, however most of the time water connections are off to the side or actually in the wall, so it would not intrude on the panel working space unless it was on the wall directly below the panel.