Reduced neutral to dryer

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FionaZuppa said:
but then maybe OP didnt give correct info, maybe it is conduit to a NEMA? post #1 does not suggest that, but who knows. hard wire or not, where in NEC is the exception that allows downsize of a CCC for a 2-pole 3CCC dryer ?
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Perhaps. But it's not worth my time to thumb thru to some rarely used (or conflicting) NEC section, or figure out motor vs heater FLA, etc. to avoid pulling in #10 as a dryer neutral. I'm going to pull in #10, be done with it, and onto the next job in less time than it's taken to reply here. and not give 2c about the extra $0.14 worth of copper I used pulling in a #10 vs #12.

Real world.
 
JFletcher said:
Perhaps. But it's not worth my time to thumb thru to some rarely used (or conflicting) NEC section, or figure out motor vs heater FLA, etc. to avoid pulling in #10 as a dryer neutral. I'm going to pull in #10, be done with it, and onto the next job in less time than it's taken to reply here. and not give 2c about the extra $0.14 worth of copper I used pulling in a #10 vs #12.

Real world.
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i agree with you. was just following the thread which made some references that "would/might" allow such, etc. hence i think we are all kinda wondering what the real Q is in post #1, or why that Q is asked that way. its an old Q, http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=85868&page=2
 
FionaZuppa said:
i agree with you. was just following the thread which made some references that "would/might" allow such, etc. hence i think we are all kinda wondering what the real Q is in post #1, or why that Q is asked that way.
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My first thought was it was a test/instructor question... 'is there ANY instance where you can use a #12 grounded/#10 ungrounded and grounding conductors to a dryer'? type thing. Dont care. #10 all the way around and done, unless this was something like a coin operated unit in a hotel that is 300' from the panel, then as iwire mentioned I'd be looking at VD.

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Some of you guys might be able to remember every little exception in the NEC. I cannot. If I am in doubt I'm going above code (or its exceptions) unless material cost to do so merits research. I dont believe that the case here.
 
JFletcher said:
This thread is about a hard wired dryer.
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That never even entered my mind and I still would say that is a 0.001% chance of being a hard wired dryer.


All Im saying is that 110.3(B) can come into play, as those are part of the instructions.
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I agree. :)

The mfg also spec'd copper wire. You might be able to land #8 or #6 on the lugs; that is meeting or exceeding mfg install instructions, and I wouldnt have a problem with doing such for voltage drop. #12 is not #10 or better, so imho using it to hardwire a dryer like the one I linked instructions to would be a violation.
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Hold on, you are telling us that 'use number 10 AWG" is a listing instruction but we can ignore it if we go bigger.

I think you are winging it. :)



And again, I highly doubt this thread is about a hardwired dryer.
 
FionaZuppa said:
post #1 ???

not, "conduit to receptacle"
yes?
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While I concur hard-wired is possible, I automatically assumed receptacle. Perhaps that's just as bad as gleaning it is hard wired from "running conduit to a clothes dryer".

I'll still say my assumption has a better probability of being correct. :lol:
 
iwire said:
That never even entered my mind and I still would say that is a 0.001% chance of being a hard wired dryer.
And again, I highly doubt this thread is about a hardwired dryer.
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Say you are running conduit to a clothes dryer .......
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so right away you assume its conduit to a NEMA recept? you're not even near 50/50 ??? using jbox and flex it would certainly be very valid to keep people from unplugging a possibly coin operated dryer and using the power for free. maybe Mr Jones put in a coin operated dryer in his house to make the kids pay-for-use and dont want anyone doing anything they should not be doing with a receptacle if it were there ??? who knows, but 0.001%, really?

Smart $ said:
I'll still say my assumption has a better probability of being correct. :lol:
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well, at this point, some us us think its flex (conduit) to the dryer, some of you believe otherwise. from interpreting the words of post #1, i myself did not assume receptacle, but think maybe the OP may have asked w/o good clarity. see post #63 if you missed that.
 
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JFletcher said:
Perhaps. But it's not worth my time to thumb thru to some rarely used (or conflicting) NEC section, or figure out motor vs heater FLA, etc. to avoid pulling in #10 as a dryer neutral. I'm going to pull in #10, be done with it, and onto the next job in less time than it's taken to reply here. and not give 2c about the extra $0.14 worth of copper I used pulling in a #10 vs #12.

Real world.
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Yeah, it's the difference between a theoretical/classroom discussion and the real world. In the classroom the question is "what is the minimum conductor size for this application?" whereas the real world question is "will the #10 I have in the truck work?" :D
 
FionaZuppa said:
so right away you assume its conduit to a NEMA recept?
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Yes, that is how single phase LL/LN 30 amp dryers are wired.




using jbox and flex it would certainly be very valid to keep people from unplugging a possibly coin operated dryer and using the power for free. maybe Mr Jones put in a coin operated dryer in his house to make the kids pay-for-use and dont want anyone doing anything they should not be doing with a receptacle if it were there
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If you don't use a receptacle you have to install a disconnect switch or breaker lock, that being the case most electricians go for a cord and plug.
 
iwire said:
Yes, that is how single phase LL/LN 30 amp dryers are wired.


If you don't use a receptacle you have to install a disconnect switch or breaker lock, that being the case most electricians go for a cord and plug.
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the GE dryer (a single phase LL/LN appliance) instructions show how to wire using conduit.

and your point about disco/lockout is not relevant to the OP's question.

next?
 
FionaZuppa said:
the GE dryer (a single phase LL/LN appliance) instructions show how to wire using conduit.

and your point about disco/lockout is not relevant to the OP's question.

next?
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Actual electricians don't think about this stuff. We run a smaller neutral and move on to the next job.
 
peter d said:
Actual electricians don't think about this stuff. We run a smaller neutral and move on to the next job.
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are you saying electricians just dont think? i suspect not.
ok, where in NEC does it allow you to use #12 N for a 1-phase 2-pole 3CCC ~25A dryer (hard wire or receptacle)? i patiently waiting. i myself cant find it, but maybe i missed it.
 
FionaZuppa said:
who knows what, you never know (which is what the NEC writes code for). shouldn't all CCC's be sized to the receptacle's amp rating?

7080333__85990.1450869003.500.750.jpg
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Let's see the listing for that dogbone......
 
FionaZuppa said:
a 2-pole 3 CCC dryer, you calculate neutral amps how exactly? for that matter, a 2-pole 3 CCC NEMA 14-, the neutral calc is what ??
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Is nothing in NEC that specifically addresses this AFAIK. Experience does tell me that for the most part there is a (maximum) 1/2 hp 120 volt motor in such appliances, possibly a 120 volt lamp that is maybe 25 watts maximum, and either a mechanical or electronic timer control that usually operates at 120 volts as well. I don't expect there to be more then 10 amps maximum on the neutral conductor. If you can find a model with more neutral load then that feel free to post links to the specifications of that model.

FionaZuppa said:
are you saying electricians just dont think? i suspect not.
ok, where in NEC does it allow you to use #12 N for a 1-phase 2-pole 3CCC ~25A dryer (hard wire or receptacle)? i patiently waiting. i myself cant find it, but maybe i missed it.
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Ca n you find anything that prohibits it? Like I mentioned earlier there is minimum grounded conductor sizes mentioned in 215 for feeders and for services you get to jump around a little bit but there is a minimum size, I haven't ever found such requirement in 210 for branch circuit grounded conductors.

For those worried about what someone may plug in there down the road - how can you control that even if you ran 10 AWG for all conductors? Then if the breaker doesn't hold how do you prevent them from swapping with a higher setting breaker? You can only design/install for what you have now, you can't "what if" proof everything, an improved idiot will eventually find a way of messing it up.

As far as people plugging other items into range or dryer outlet - I'd say over 99% of what I have ever seen has either no neutral or about as minimal of a neutral load as the range or dryer has, exception may be for 50 amp receptacles supplying a camper, job trailer or something of that nature, but in those cases they generally are not plugging into a receptacle located specifically in a place for a range but rather the same 14-50 type of receptacle in a non kitchen location.
 
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