Reduced neutral to dryer

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FionaZuppa said:
a 2-pole 3 CCC dryer, you calculate neutral amps how exactly? for that matter, a 2-pole 3 CCC NEMA 14-, the neutral calc is what ??
this is why i am saying just match the wire to the recept accordingly. 14-50 needs #6 NM, or #8 THHN in conduit. i dont see where NEC stops #8 NM to a 14-50 as long as OCPD is no more than 40A, there is no 14-40 to use, etc. but i see where folks may see a 14-50 and think the ckt is good for 50 if they swap out the 40 to a 50 ocpd.

this falls into same argument of running #14 to 20A rated recepts using 15A ocpd. seems plausible, very possible that someone uses a real 20A device and keeps tripping breaker, but then they decided to swap the breaker to a 20A = bad.

with a dryer on a 14-30, #10 will be min wire size, so if the ocpd was for some reason a 25a ocpd and i swapped that to a 30a, no issue.
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What other people do with my installations is of no concern to me whatsoever. Please stop trying to put your theoretical "what ifs" into real world situations, you have no practical experience as an electrician and shouldn't be lecturing us on what should and shouldn't be done.
 
JFletcher said:
I'm sure the nameplate of the dryer, instructions, or the terminal block will specify minimum #10 copper conductors, so a #12 neutral will be a 110.3(B) violation.
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install instructions for ranges and dryers are rather crude, GE stuff just says "40A ckt" for their ranges.

i dont think the term blocks state min wire size, i dont recall any, did some online pic searching, none seem to state a min wire size at the term block itself.
 
peter d said:
What other people do with my installations is of no concern to me whatsoever. Please stop trying to put your theoretical "what ifs" into real world situations, you have no practical experience as an electrician and shouldn't be lecturing us on what should and shouldn't be done.
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of course you dont care what people may do after you leave, you are just an electrician following the preachings of the NEC. i do care, and its why i dont mind the comments from AHJ's doing inspections when they say "you didnt need to go above beyond what the code says", i just tell them "yeah, i know, but its better this way", AHJ approves all my work but rarely understands why things are better, they are only check-box paper pushers using NEC as a reference. do as you see fit :thumbsup:
 
FionaZuppa said:
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of course you dont care what people may do after you leave, you are just an electrician following the preachings of the NEC. i do care, and its why i dont mind the comments from AHJ's doing inspections when they say "you didnt need to go above beyond what the code says", i just tell them "yeah, i know, but its better this way", AHJ approves all my work but rarely understands why things are better, they are only check-box paper pushers using NEC as a reference. do as you see fit :thumbsup:
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You are awesome, the world's best.
 
iwire said:
You are awesome, the world's best.
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better than many, i would say.
likely not the world's best, that requires too much time & effort and not much $$ in return. its all about ROI !
:thumbsup:
 
FionaZuppa said:
install instructions for ranges and dryers are rather crude, GE stuff just says "40A ckt" for their ranges.

i dont think the term blocks state min wire size, i dont recall any, did some online pic searching, none seem to state a min wire size at the term block itself.
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iwire said:
I would like to see any dryer directions that indicate wire size.
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Page 7, top right:

https://www.whirlpool.com/digitalassets/WEL98HEBU/Installation Instruction_EN.pdf

WARNING!
Fire Hazard

Use 10 gauge copper wire
 
mbrooke said:
This covers taps and fixture wire? I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I do not see a neutral conductor following tap rules.
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I have no idea why you went to the exceptions when I did not mention them.

In my opinion 210.19(A)(4) does not prohibit a reduced neutral to a dryer.

That said I do have to agree that 210.4(D) is an issue.
 
mbrooke said:
but what would prevent someone from plugging in something that puts more than 20amps on the noodle?
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Nothing? :)

If I install a 50 amp receptacle and 50 amp conductors for a welder and protect them at say 100 amps as very likely allowed by article 630 what is to protect people from themselves there?
 
iwire said:
That is specifically for a hard wired dryer (look above the text) and if we read it the way you want us too we cannot run a larger conductor for voltage drop. Seems a bit odd.
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This thread is about a hard wired dryer. Cord and plug assemblies are different, true. All Im saying is that 110.3(B) can come into play, as those are part of the instructions.

The mfg also spec'd copper wire. You might be able to land #8 or #6 on the lugs; that is meeting or exceeding mfg install instructions, and I wouldnt have a problem with doing such for voltage drop. #12 is not #10 or better, so imho using it to hardwire a dryer like the one I linked instructions to would be a violation.

That written, I see no real danger from using #12 as a noodle on a dryer, nor any compelling reason to pull it. I'd re-identify some black #10 white for the neutral before pulling in #12. better still, have the right materials for the job.

Are any residential dryers even hardwired? Commercial ones, like for hotel laundry, sure, but those weigh half a ton and arent getting moved (and are NG anyway).
 
iwire said:
That is specifically for a hard wired dryer (look above the text) and if we read it the way you want us too we cannot run a larger conductor for voltage drop. Seems a bit odd.
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hence why i had said that the directions are "crude", kinda wonky/goofy.

JFletcher said:
This thread is about a hard wired dryer. Cord and plug assemblies are different, true. All Im saying is that 110.3(B) can come into play, as those are part of the instructions.

I see no real danger from using #12 as a noodle on a dryer

Are any residential dryers even hardwired?
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but according to peter d, this is theoretical speculation on your part. where in NEC does it allow you to downsize ampacity of a CCC for a dryer, regardless if all the instructions say is "have fun with the install, this unit is 2-pole 60Hz 120v/240v 3-CCC w/ EGC 25A rated"?

conduit installed resi dryer? maybe, depends on actual location. maybe a garage or workshop area, certainly gonna be some type of flex, which to me is more trouble than using NEMA w/ cord.

iwire said:
If I install a 50 amp receptacle and 50 amp conductors for a welder and protect them at say 100 amps as very likely allowed by article 630 what is to protect people from themselves there?
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seems more like a "dedicated ckt" ? maybe NEC should require a silly cover plate sticker that says "this receptacle for welder" ? ;)
 
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JFletcher said:
OP never mentioned a receptacle or cord and plug. Literally, conduit to the dryer, i.e., hard wired.
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but then maybe OP didnt give correct info, maybe it is conduit to a NEMA? post #1 does not suggest that, but who knows. hard wire or not, where in NEC is the exception that allows downsize of a CCC for a 2-pole 3CCC dryer ?
 
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