rough-in rejected

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jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
And I can't seem to find the article that talks about labeling the circuits. The index shows article 100 and then articles 550-552. Not what I was looking for.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Shouldn't the panel be labeled? Chances are, the inspector should have noted which room and/or outlets had the #14 on them and look for the label in the panel.
Thats how i would go about it and verify with ohm meter if i don't trust the electrician. And if he lacks the skills to do this i am rethinking if he should even flip burgers
 

Ohmy

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta, GA
As a professional electrician I don't think its cool to mix wires because you "had extra laying around." Its extremely confusing for future EC's and the inspector. It looks sloppy. It is sloppy. Imagine troubleshooting in a world where this can of work was typical.

Running a larger gauge circuit and protect with a smaller breaker to cover a voltage drop is completely different. There is a purpose and your not mixing wires.

We regularly oversize conductors for A/C units and install none fusible disconnects outside and the correct over current protection inside. So I agree with Iwire. You can't just walk in and up the breaker to match the wire.

BUT...that's on a dedicated circuit with a distinct purpose. The OP is mixing wires on a branch circuit because he does not want to spring for a roll of 14/2.
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Engineering
So is there a final outcome to this dillemma!

From post# 95

For the project to move on, I changed out the #12 in the circuit to #14(so now entire ckt is #14)...Passed reinspection today.....Left note for inspector stating "For future reference, which NEC or local code was last week's rough-in failure in violation of?

He wrote on my note "Wire table 316 14 wire to be fused at 15amps."

WOW! So he told me something I was going to do all along and avoided telling me which code was violated by mixing #12 and #14 wire in a circuit. Also, is there even a table 316?
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
As a professional electrician I don't think its cool to mix wires because you "had extra laying around." Its extremely confusing for future EC's and the inspector. It looks sloppy. It is sloppy. Imagine troubleshooting in a world where this can of work was typical.

Running a larger gauge circuit and protect with a smaller breaker to cover a voltage drop is completely different. There is a purpose and your not mixing wires.

We regularly oversize conductors for A/C units and install none fusible disconnects outside and the correct over current protection inside. So I agree with Iwire. You can't just walk in and up the breaker to match the wire.

BUT...that's on a dedicated circuit with a distinct purpose. The OP is mixing wires on a branch circuit because he does not want to spring for a roll of 14/2.
This is pretty much what I've been thinking, but if it was important to mix the wire sizes, would it be possible to install breakers on roughin? Some inspectors require this anyway. Also like the idea of a note, but not sure if I'd do it that way.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
This is pretty much what I've been thinking, but if it was important to mix the wire sizes, would it be possible to install breakers on roughin? Some inspectors require this anyway. Also like the idea of a note, but not sure if I'd do it that way.

I don't like the idea of having the circuits one throw of a breaker away from being energized with no devices on the other end.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I was being more facetious than factual, but I have had experience with it first hand also.

If the job has gotten to the point where the BO has to leave his office and check on it, you as the contractor had better have done everything right, because what you are saying is that one of his trained staff (deputies) doesn't know his job. On the other had as the inspector you had better be able to back up your call with a code section.

Now for just a little more clarification and not all departments are set up the same, but by the time you have gotten to my BO, you have gone over the head of my supervisor and my deputy BO.

One of the times it happened and I was correct, I was told by the BO that the contractor wanted to make sure that he got a "by the book inspection" as he winked at me. That, is a very thourough and long inspection, that book is really thick. ;)

when all the smoke clears, this is the bottom line, right or wrong. The inspector is normally the only one who decides how long he stays and how deep he goes in the book. Over the years, I witnessed a few "spitting contests", and, as long as the violations are valid, no matter how petty, the inspector has won.
 

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
As a professional electrician I don't think its cool to mix wires because you "had extra laying around." Its extremely confusing for future EC's and the inspector. It looks sloppy. It is sloppy. Imagine troubleshooting in a world where this can of work was typical.

The OP is mixing wires on a branch circuit because he does not want to spring for a roll of 14/2.

My install wasn't sloppy at all. As a matter of fact it looked very nice. Liked I stated earlier, it was a master bdrm addition(my own home not customer) and the #14 was only used on 3 ways and one fan/light comdo in bthrm. I didn't run #12 to one box, #14 to another box, and back to #12 to the next. The whole point of the post was " what is the NEC violation?" Had I thought mixing #12 and #14 in a circuit was a violation, I wouldn't have done it and would have "sprung" for a roll of 14/2.

But as Augie stated in post #130, the inspector is the one who decides.
 

cycotcskir

Senior Member
You can always talk to his boss AFTER the final. It won't help you, but may help some othe people that this guy inspects.

It may be best to send a letter detailing the situation, rather than a call. You can fully develop your thoughts with less possibliity of leaving out an important point.

As far as mentioning this Forum... I wouldn't. I, personally, have a great deal of respect for the knowledge of MANY people on this forum. If I didn't regularly read the posts and "get to know" the guys here, I may think of it as just another internet site with a bunch of yahoo's complaining about things.

After all, do you believe everything that you read on the internet? Why is this place any different? To someone who does not frequent this place... nothing!
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
My install wasn't sloppy at all. As a matter of fact it looked very nice. Liked I stated earlier, it was a master bdrm addition(my own home not customer) and the #14 was only used on 3 ways and one fan/light comdo in bthrm. I didn't run #12 to one box, #14 to another box, and back to #12 to the next. The whole point of the post was " what is the NEC violation?" Had I thought mixing #12 and #14 in a circuit was a violation, I wouldn't have done it and would have "sprung" for a roll of 14/2.

But as Augie stated in post #130, the inspector is the one who decides.

Your problem is not over what you did. That install is fine provided end result is 15 amp breaker. You did not undersize your wires you simply oversized most of them.There is a major problem with how your inspection system operates. If an inspector alone has this much power then something is very wrong. Maybe you and others in your state can work together and change this setup. Sounds like your dealing with BOSS HOGG.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
I don't like the idea of having the circuits one throw of a breaker away from being energized with no devices on the other end.
Good point, even though I tape over them some idiot is bound to pull off the tape, now I like the idea of a note. But I wouldn't want to trust that I'd remeber that circuit, or who knows, not be here anymore.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
Good point, even though I tape over them some idiot is bound to pull off the tape, now I like the idea of a note. But I wouldn't want to trust that I'd remeber that circuit, or who knows, not be here anymore.

You shouldn't have to go around during the rough taping up all the homeruns in the first box of each circuit.

As far as mentioning this Forum... I wouldn't. I, personally, have a great deal of respect for the knowledge of MANY people on this forum. If I didn't regularly read the posts and "get to know" the guys here, I may think of it as just another internet site with a bunch of yahoo's complaining about things.

After all, do you believe everything that you read on the internet? Why is this place any different? To someone who does not frequent this place... nothing!

This bears repeating. We trust much of the stuff that is found here because we've had time to see for ourselves who knows their stuff and who is full of it.
 

TonyEEINC

Member
Location
Yukon, OK
14 gauge failure

14 gauge failure

We have a couple citys here in OK that wont allow 14 gauge wire in a residentail new construction. (NONE)
They were fighting Contractors that wanted to use it on travelers for 3 ways, and other places down load that would not carry the full load of the circuit.
They lost a few arguments, so they just said AHJ says No 14 in any new house.
 

johngary

Member
Location
Washington State
Pigtail a #14 wire to the #12 wire and land it on a 15Amp breaker

Pigtail a #14 wire to the #12 wire and land it on a 15Amp breaker

In our area it is necessary to have the panel made up before inspection is possible. So if I were mixing wire sizes I would let the last splice or termination show what I intended the circuit to carry. You can always put a larger wire on a smaller breaker but not the opposite -- RIGHT! So if the size of the finale connection to the breaker is #14 wire onto a 15 Amp breaker -- you have eliminated any point of rejection -- according to the NEC. However remember that the NEC states that the AHJ also has the last word. It usually cost something to buck the inspector even if you are RIGHT. You may end up regretting being right when future jobs are inspected. JG
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
We have a couple citys here in OK that wont allow 14 gauge wire in a residentail new construction. (NONE)
They were fighting Contractors that wanted to use it on travelers for 3 ways, and other places down load that would not carry the full load of the circuit.
They lost a few arguments, so they just said AHJ says No 14 in any new house.
That is a wreckless way to use authority
 
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