Samsung Refrigerator Tripping GFCI

[Doc13067]

Dual function cb?

It’s a GFCI just like the outlet. It’s going to trip at the same time the outlet would or it’s not doing it’s job.

 

[Doc13067]

I'll take a stab at it:

Get the refrigerator running and cooled to normal temperature on a non-GFCI-protected circuit first.

Larry here’s the big question - Does this only need to happen when you initially plug it in or is this going to happen every time the fridge is above temp and kicks in to cool down?

 

[LarryFine]

Larry here’s the big question - Does this only need to happen when you initially plug it in or is this going to happen every time the fridge is above temp and kicks in to cool down?

Don't ask me; I was just translating.

I took it to mean that the refrigerator would run differently after the initial cool-down.

Others who chimed in suggested that residual moisture would be driven out with heat.

 

[ptonsparky]

It costs nothing to try.

Don't ask me; I was just translating.

I took it to mean that the refrigerator would run differently after the initial cool-down.

Others who chimed in suggested that residual moisture would be driven out with heat.

 

[ramsy]

Using an approved external isolation transformer like this one, for example (or perhaps a more economic model): https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-IS1800HG-Isolation-Transformer/dp/B00008N6S7

The transformer could still be grounded and it is not installed as part of the building. Perhaps it could be placed 6' away from the sink to skirt that, if it applies to the appliance. Please let me know your take on this if I am mistaken - from the perspective of liability to the electrician, he has not made any installation against code this way, as his job stopped at the receptacle. It is up to the end user to operate the transformer, like any other appliance.

Nice find. This UL 60601-1 compliant device appears more effective than isolated grounding for sensitive medical equipment.

When Brick & Mortar OEM's like Tripp Lite use Amazon.com, its amazing to see that inventory with product listings, such as UL 60601.

That probably goes away once OEM learns to register the store at an overseas address.

 

[retirede]

The receptacle is within 6 feet of the sink but would it even matter if the refrigerator is within 3 feet of the sink and not GFCI protected? I would think that a big metal item so close to the sink should be GFCI protected even if the receptacle is in the front yard.

Yes, it would matter. The NEC requirement is for the receptacle location, not what’s plugged into it.

The refrigerator has an EGC. It’s safe near the sink. The reason that the code is written the way it is, is to prevent someone plugging in a portable appliance with a 6’ cord into a non-GFCI protected receptacle and allowing that appliance to reach the sink.

 

[ramsy]

The lower speed might then shift some of the common mode noise to lower frequencies which can pass through the low pass filtering of the GFCI detection circuitry and cause it to trip.

The 2013 revision of UL 499, for "Leakage Current" p28 of 36 prohibits leakage current above 0.75mA, except during heat up & cool down when the "Standard for Leakage Current for Appliances, UL 101" allows up to 2.5mA. Both standards are well below, or compatible with Class A GFCI of 4-6mA.

More domestic appliances are purchased from Amazon.com, sold by overseas sellers not required to pass UL standards in their jurisdiction.

 

[ptonsparky]

Nice find. This UL 60601-1 compliant device appears more effective than isolated grounding for sensitive medical equipment.

When Brick & Mortar OEM's like Tripp Lite use Amazon.com, its amazing to see that inventory with product listings, such as UL 60601.

That probably goes away once OEM learns to register the store at an overseas address.

It will survive a drop test.

That will be important because I could see my significant drop kicking that experiment right out the door.

 

[ramsy]

1) Manufacturers not getting on board and designing their hardware from the get-go to not trip a GFCI when properly functioning.

Samsung inverter refrigerator encountered last month also caused severe shock, only when touched at specific point.

Since it tripped kitchen GFCI, occupants had used an extension cord to plug elsewhere. That extension cord only had 2 prongs, leaving appliance grounding prong exposed, and a shock hazard when one hand simultaneously touched it and other hand touched sinks, or bonded appliances.

Unlike open neutrals that can energize grounding paths back to source, no sinks or appliances were found energized. Several processes of elimination were used to confirm the only possible source of shock hazard in this case. Samsung's inverter refrigerator was carefully designed to insulate all other surfaces that consumers may touch.

 

[ramsy]

a big metal item so close to the sink should be GFCI protected even if the receptacle is in the front yard.

Roger that.

Can you seen an NRTL listing for that Samsung inverter appliance?

Wondering if they care to pass North American UL test requirements, required in post #27 above.

 

[synchro]

The Consumer Product Safety Commission released the following info on their website about supporting efforts of UL Standards Technical Panels in revising UL 101 and UL 943 to address high frequency leakage currents from VFD's:

https://www.cpsc.gov/content/UL-STP-101-for-Standard-for-Leakage-Current-for-Utilization-Equipment

https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/20...ries-UL-Standards-Technical-Panel-STP-101.pdf

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The standard making process is a long and drawn out one, much like the process to change the NEC, often taking a number of years between a proposal and the issuing of a new standard.
I doubt that the change in UL 943 to address the high frequency leakage issue will be far enough along for a GFCI-HF to be on the market for 3 or 4 more years.

 

[kwired]

Where is the recept? Behind the fridge? What happend to the single plex solution?

That solution for not using GFCI went away way back in either 2005 or 2008 NEC.

 

[kwired]

I wondered too. A good EG is all that may be required.

That from a guy, me, who had a GFCI ahead of a chest freezer because it's next to a utility room sink where I used to wash the legs and feet of grandchildren while they sat on it.

Actually an open EG likely will eliminate high frequency leakage that is tripping the GFCI. I've run into this with clothes washers with variable speed motors. Plug them into a two to three prong cheater and they run fine. Plug them directly so the EGC connects and they start the cycle fine - fill the machine with water but the instant the motor is called to run they trip the GFCI. If they would just electrically isolate the motor from the frame of the machine that usually resolves the issue.

But I do understand your wanting a good EGC and probably even a GFCI for something next to the sink in your situation.

 

[kwired]

The receptacle is within 6 feet of the sink but would it even matter if the refrigerator is within 3 feet of the sink and not GFCI protected? I would think that a big metal item so close to the sink should be GFCI protected even if the receptacle is in the front yard.

The reality that the NEC threw out the window many code cycles ago is the importance of a good equipment grounding conductor. GFCI is supposed to be there to kick in should the EGC become compromised. Now they want GFCI on so many things with the justification of "because we can".

 

[kwired]

Don't ask me; I was just translating.

I took it to mean that the refrigerator would run differently after the initial cool-down.

Others who chimed in suggested that residual moisture would be driven out with heat.

Residual moisture is about the only thing that suggestion will work for. If it is tripping because of high frequency leakage of a variable speed compressor it is not going to matter. So I guess it won't hurt to try it for a while on non GFCI protected circuit to see if it will dry something out. But after that, something else is an issue.

One other possibility is something like a defrost heater has a ground fault but only kicks on periodically making it seem more random.

 

[winnie]

Back when GFCIs were first required for commercial kitchen receptacles, I wondered if it would be possible to have a combination GFCI / assured EGC system, where the GFCI thresholds would be raised if the EGC tested intact.

Jon

 

[kwired]

Back when GFCIs were first required for commercial kitchen receptacles, I wondered if it would be possible to have a combination GFCI / assured EGC system, where the GFCI thresholds would be raised if the EGC tested intact.

Jon

Might been possible then. GFCI manufacturers that have a lot of $$ to throw at convincing the CMP's however will not let this happen very easily.

And in meantime appliance manufacturers will still make items that don't play well with GFCI's even though nothing is wrong with them otherwise.

This will leave the EC's and other installers that wish to comply with the codes as the guy in the middle that gets stuck with trying to satisfy the end user yet try to meet codes and at his own expense most of the time.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The reality that the NEC threw out the window many code cycles ago is the importance of a good equipment grounding conductor. GFCI is supposed to be there to kick in should the EGC become compromised. Now they want GFCI on so many things with the justification of "because we can".

Exactly, but the product standards did not even address leakage current for hard wired equipment, because the product standard assumed that the code required equipment grounding conductor will do its job. The expansion of GFCI into hard wired equipment and the energy standards that require the use of power conversion equipment have resulted in these issues....60 hertz leakage current because the product standards for hard wired equipment did not address that issue, and the high frequency current that results from the power conversion equipment. To separate issues that require action in the product standards before the issues will be resolved.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Back when GFCIs were first required for commercial kitchen receptacles, I wondered if it would be possible to have a combination GFCI / assured EGC system, where the GFCI thresholds would be raised if the EGC tested intact.

Jon

The special purpose GFCIs require a ground check conductor. If the SPGFCI can not verify the equipment grounding conductor, the device opens the circuit, even without any leakage current.