Samsung Refrigerator Tripping GFCI

[Fred B]

Agreed that the 20mA threshold is not as safe as the 4-6mA class A protection.

But the combination of 20mA protection with enforced EGC connection changes this balance. 20mA through a person is a significant hazard. 20mA through the EGC not so much.

Remember that we are talking about equipment fastened in place, where the danger is that the EGC fails, and a separate failure energizes the chassis.

Jon

But that is not what the code is requiring related to the kitchen or the exterior outlets, it is requiring the 4-6mA for personal protection.
The only times code references SPGFCI use is related to 680 and 410.

 

[winnie]

But that is not what the code is requiring related to the kitchen or the exterior outlets, it is requiring the 4-6mA for personal protection.
The only times code references SPGFCI use is related to 680 and 410.

Agreed.

If I was not clear above, I am suggesting that this would be a good solution for the problem of stationary VFD fed appliances, which would require a code change and a variation on existing hardware in the market.

 

[Fred B]

Agreed.

If I was not clear above, I am suggesting that this would be a good solution for the problem of stationary VFD fed appliances, which would require a code change and a variation on existing hardware in the market.

Safety reasons suggest it is the appliance mfg. that need to make a change, not the code. If a safety device can be made to ignore the frequency feedback or the use of the EGC for neutral current, and still protect to the 4-6mA, then we have something.
Wonder if UL would have any input or control to fixing the conflict issues.

 

[winnie]

Leakage from VFD capacitive coupling can be reduced by thicker nsulation or by capacitive shielding. So IMHO the appliance manufacturers could build devices which work with class A GFCI devices.

However I have no idea how much more such would cost, and believe that 20mA is not a safety hazard if it flows on a verified intact EGC.

Jon

 

[Fred B]

20mA is not a safety hazard if it flows on a verified intact EGC

But even intact, current will take ALL Available paths. How much it will divide between the EGC and a grounded YOU I don't know, but if you provide a lower resistance path than the EGC you get a greater percentage of the up to 20mA and you may receive over the 6mA, that can be a safety concern.
Another thread commented on concern, because of shock occurring from the properly grounded refrigerator and presumption of contributing factor of NEV through the bonded refrigerator shell.

 

[winnie]

But even intact, current will take ALL Available paths. How much it will divide between the EGC and a grounded YOU I don't know, but if you provide a lower resistance path than the EGC you get a greater percentage of the up to 20mA and you may receive over the 6mA, that can be a safety concern.

Even a 9V battery can cause a fatal shock, if the electrodes are perfectly placed. But in general voltages below 30V are considered non-hazardous.

If the voltage of 20mA across the resistance of the EGC is less than 30V, then the current division will be such that the bulk of the current will flow in the EGC, not through a person.

Another thread commented on concern, because of shock occurring from the properly grounded refrigerator and presumption of contributing factor of NEV through the bonded refrigerator shell.

This is a separate and real issue. A GFCI of any sort will not protect from this shock hazard because they do not disconnect the EGC.

Jon

 

[rambojoe]

Even a 9V battery can cause a fatal shock, if the electrodes are perfectly placed. But in general voltages below 30V are considered non-hazardous

Careful, there is a little buddy gang of electricians here who do not believe that...

 

[mtnelect]

How can an Electrical Contractor make a profit when having to install GFCI/AFCI + LED fixtures (that flicker) after the job is completed. Should they put it in the contract: "This contract includes 3 complementary emergency service calls". After that you are on your own !

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Even a 9V battery can cause a fatal shock, if the electrodes are perfectly placed. But in general voltages below 30V are considered non-hazardous.

...

I think you can make that happen with much less voltage and a couple of needles.

 

[brantmacga]

FWIW, I've installed meters capable of measuring mA in series with the EG conductors. That way you know what level your dealing with. Gar would have suggested a series resistor, with a voltmeter in parallel with it.

does anyone know where Gar is

 

[brantmacga]

How can an Electrical Contractor make a profit when having to install GFCI/AFCI + LED fixtures (that flicker) after the job is completed. Should they put it in the contract: "This contract includes 3 complementary emergency service calls". After that you are on your own !

you can specify how many mobilizations are included in a contract. Issues with customer-supplied fixtures/devices would not be a warranty call, and should be billed. Small time builders will lose their mind over it. Larger contractors would expect it.

 

[ptonsparky]

does anyone know where Gar is

We had a thread with a bit of information not to long ago. FWIU he had some health issues but is expecting to be back.

 

[kwired]

But even intact, current will take ALL Available paths. How much it will divide between the EGC and a grounded YOU I don't know, but if you provide a lower resistance path than the EGC you get a greater percentage of the up to 20mA and you may receive over the 6mA, that can be a safety concern.
Another thread commented on concern, because of shock occurring from the properly grounded refrigerator and presumption of contributing factor of NEV through the bonded refrigerator shell.

You can say the same thing for all items that are currently allowed to have GFPE protection. The bigger hazard even with GFPE is if you would lose the EGC. Otherwise as long as EGC is intact faults are going to clear very quickly once they occur. You would have to be touching the protected item and also in contact with a ground path and sit there and wait for the fault to occur to be at much risk. Could happen right away could wait for years for it to happen.

 

[kwired]

We had a thread with a bit of information not to long ago. FWIU he had some health issues but is expecting to be back.

I thought someone posted they found an obituary they thought was for him? Or has that been verified not to be him?

 

[ptonsparky]

I thought someone posted they found an obituary they thought was for him? Or has that been verified not to be him?

Not him.

 

[macmikeman]

I have one of these (Actually that is mine...) that I use to check a gfi outlet if an appliance is randomly tripping the gfi. It allows me to step up the ground fault level litle bit by bit , which helps diagnose if it is the gfi or if it is the appliance instead. If the GFI trips at 1, 2, or 3 milamps, then swap the GFI. If it goes to six before it trips the appliance is suspect. I just teel the owner I have bad news for you, the GFI is trying to save your life , get rid of the fridge.

 

[Fred B]

I just teel the owner I have bad news for you, the GFI is trying to save your life , get rid of the fridge.

"But I just Spent $2500 on that new fridge, get rid of the GFI."

 

[ptonsparky]

I've told them 'get rid of...' as well. Normally older appliances that should have been replaced a decade or two earlier.

 

[kwired]

I have one of these (Actually that is mine...) that I use to check a gfi outlet if an appliance is randomly tripping the gfi. It allows me to step up the ground fault level litle bit by bit , which helps diagnose if it is the gfi or if it is the appliance instead. If the GFI trips at 1, 2, or 3 milamps, then swap the GFI. If it goes to six before it trips the appliance is suspect. I just teel the owner I have bad news for you, the GFI is trying to save your life , get rid of the fridge. View attachment 2569202

I'll add that you need to also consider any downstream protected items if they are present before putting any blame on what is plugged into the receptacle.

 

[macmikeman]

I'll add that you need to also consider any downstream protected items if they are present before putting any blame on what is plugged into the receptacle.

Add'l information printed on rear of device................