Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

George Stolz · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Where is the lighting outlet required by 210.70?

Attached to the other half of a duplex serving wall space as required by 210.52(A) & (B).

George Stolz · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by iwire:
I would also say in your example switching that outlet the buffet is plugged into would be fine.

Take away the ceiling light and it all changes.

I think I might have an answer for this.

NEC-2005 210.8(A)(6)Kitchens-where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces

This is an example of the concept you're trying to apply to this. If a microwave is shown on the plans, sitting on the counter, but (for argument's sake) screwed down, it's receptacle would not have to be GFI protected, as it's not installed to "serve the countertop spaces."

I know this is a sloppy presentation, but it's just as an illustration. Let's call it "to serve"-type instructions.

Bob, there is no such "to serve" language in the sections we're debating, I think that's where you're coming from. Am I way off base, or am I onto you?

jimwalker · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

The key here is it said IN LIEU OF.In lieu of means instead of.So using that i could say it said i don't need a lighting outlet.And that instead of a lighting outlet i can offer a switched receptacle.So if i offer a SA receptacle thats switched i have met what they asked for.Note that it did not say a switched receptacle on a general purpose circuit and it was including the dining room in this option.

jwelectric · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Originally posted by jwelectric:
[qb]What I have tried so hard to point out to George is that if I am installing a circuit as outlined in 210.52 (B) (1) for the small appliances and decide at this time to switch a receptacle in lieu of the light then I use the exception that is located there which requires that it be on a general purpose circuit.

Click to expand...

Why do you keep saying that 210.52(B)(1)'s exception requires it to be on a GPBC? The difference between "permitted" and "required" is monumentally important to what we're discussing here.

No George, at this point I am installing the small appliance circuit I MUST adhere to the requirement of this article and it?s exceptions. The code tells me in this exception that I can install a switched receptacle in lieu of a light but if I do this now then I MUST use a general purpose circuit

If I am installing my lighting circuit as outlined in 210.70 and I decide to switch the receptacle then I use the exception that is located there.

Click to expand...

And then you must observe 210.52(B)'s rules regarding how those receptacles are supplied. 210.70 makes no comment on the supply of that switched receptacle.

No George at this point I am running cables for overhead lights that are already on a general purpose circuit. The exception here will allow me to install a switched receptacle instead of the over headlight. 210.70 has nothing at all to do with the small appliance circuits or receptales

jwelectric · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
The key here is it said IN LIEU OF.In lieu of means instead of.So using that i could say it said i don't need a lighting outlet.And that instead of a lighting outlet i can offer a switched receptacle.So if i offer a SA receptacle thats switched i have met what they asked for.Note that it did not say a switched receptacle on a general purpose circuit and it was including the dining room in this option.

which article says this?

jwelectric · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Where is the lighting outlet required by 210.70?

Click to expand...

Attached to the other half of a duplex serving wall space as required by 210.52(A) & (B).

but are these not the small appliance receptacles? If so by which exception are we using them?

jimwalker · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).
(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (2), and (3).
(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.
-------------------------------------------------

Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.

look up the word in lieu of

jimwalker · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Had they not meant for us to use the SA receptacle in the dining room why did they tell us we could.What other than SA receptacle would they been telling us we could use ?

jwelectric · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).
(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (2), and (3).
(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.
-------------------------------------------------

Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.

look up the word in lieu of

Good deal Jim Walker.
Now we have something to work with. I agree that the exception to 210.70 states that ?in lieu of? and that this means instead of a light fixture.

Now for the easy part of this discussion. What does this exception pertain to?

Answer, to 210.70 only. We can not use this exception any where else in the code book but here and only for 210.70. Here this exception gives me permission to switch a receptacle instead of installing the required lighting outlet as outlined in the section of the article just before it.

To try to use this exception here and apply it to any other part of the code that does not refer to it would be a violation. Does 210.52 (B) (1) refer us here?

[ April 10, 2005, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

jimwalker · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

JW ,thats exactly my point,i am dealing with lighting at this point and only lighting.And that exception without limitation said i could use the receptacle i have in the room.It did not say add a general purpose receptacle.It said i could use the receptacle if i switch it.And we all agree we can switch a SA outlet.

Keep in mind that while i am arguing as to what they said i still don't believe its what they had in mind.But till they correct it i believe it is permitted.We had no problems years ago putting that outdoor receptacl on the SA and plugging in yard lights.Why was it safe then but not now ?

jwelectric · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

No brother Jim it did not say that. 210.70 (A) (1) says that I can switch a receptacle in lieu of the lighting outlet as outlined in 210.70. The exception in 210.70 is directed to the lighting circuit and not the small appliance circuit.
When the code is addressing the small appliance circuits in 210.52 (B) (1) it has its own exception that would pertain to that section of that article as it would pertain to switching a receptacle for lights.
The exception to .70 (A) (1) cannot be referred back to .52 (B) (1) due to the fact that when installing the required 210.70 circuits we are not installing small appliance circuits.

check this out it is Obvious that some understand the meaning of 210.52 (B) (1)

[ April 10, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

George Stolz · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
To try to use this exception here and apply it to any other part of the code that does not refer to it would be a violation. Does 210.52 (B) (1) refer us here?

Why do you make this so difficult? I laid out the reasoning, I'll re-post it.

But when applying these codes, I address one at a time, in sequence. It goes like this:

I need a lighting outlet in a habitable dining room.
A switched receptacle is permitted by 210.70, with no distinction as to what circuits they should be on, per 210.70. Kitchens and bathrooms cannot use this exception.
So I can install a switched receptacle in the dining room. There is nothing more that 210.70 has to offer for my situation.
Edit: We are now complete with 210.70. I am not attempting to pull any of 210.70's concepts with me. I am now interested in installing a receptacle in the dining room. 210.70 causes me to, but I am no longer dealing with 210.70.
I turn to 210.52, .52(A) & (B), which address where I am to put receptacles in my dining room.
(B)(1) states that all my receptacles for wall/counter/floor use are to be on the SA circuit(s).
I install my receptacles per code.
For curiousity's sake only, I look at the exceptions and sections that I haven't used:
(B)(1)#1: Oh, I was permitted to use #14 instead of #12, that convenient. I could do that next time.
(B)(1)#2: Well, I can run a dedicated circuit for my fridge. That makes sense.
(B)(2): Oh, I can't stray from the eating areas and can't add serve other than floor/wall/counter receptacles in my eating areas. Good to know, I haven't done that, thank goodness. All my SA receptacles in the dining area are serving wall space.
(B)(2)#1: A clock outlet can be served by my SA's. I guess that most clock recep's are in spaces other than floors/counters/walls.
(B)(2)#2: Igniters/clocks on gas ranges are permitted on the SA's, too. I guess that those outlets are in other spaces like the clock outlet was.

George Stolz · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
check this out it is Obvious that some understand the meaning of 210.52 (B) (1)

I don't understand the point of your link.

If you click on the

[ April 10, 2005, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

jwelectric · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

George, this will be my final post on this matter. Giving what you are saying and a little thought makes clear is that you are running a cable to a switch then to a receptacle and then feeding the dinning room receptacles. Now the question becomes what to call the circuit. It feeds the dinning room receptacles therefore it must be a small appliance circuit and will fall under 210.52

No you are hitting the switch and feeding a receptacle to fulfill 210.70 then it is a lighting outlet circuit and now and only now you can use the exception under .70 (A) (1). Now if you are calling this your lighting circuit then the dinning room circuit can?t go on it according to 210.52 (B) (2)

No you do want to have the best of both worlds but this circuit will fall under one or the other article but can not fall under both. You want to use the receptacles required by 210.52 to fulfill the outlets required by 210.70

Please take the time to read the exception 1 at .52 (B) (1). It says that I am allowed to add to (in addition to) the Small appliance receptacles one more receptacle and switch it but I will have to comply with 210.70 for the required lighting outlet. It goes on to say that this general purpose lighting receptacle can be switched as out lined by exception 1 of (A) (1).

I am not allowed to turn a general purpose lighting circuit into a small appliance branch circuit nor am I allowed to use a small appliance branch circuit for lighting. This is crystal clear as it is written now.

As I stated in your proposal I wish you the best of luck, and as I just stated I think that this is crystal clear.

kturner · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I'm going to inspect the dining room George just descibed. Starting with 210.52 :
1. Does he meet spacing requirements? CHECK
2. Are all outlets served by a 20A SA circuit? CHECK
3.Are there any other outlets being served? Well, there's that one that's switched, but there's no prohibition of switching a SA outlet, it's not an other outlet it's a SA outlet that happens to be switched.CHECK
We're thru with receptacle requirements, and I have found no violations.
Moving on to 210.70- is the required lighting outlet provided? Well the exception permits a switched receptacle in lieu of a lighting outlet. There is a switched receptacle provided.CHECK
I can find no violations with this installation. I may not like it, but I can't cite any code violations.

jimwalker · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Yes it would pass.If you were to fail it what could you cite ? As to liking it well i am sure you see plenty of work you don't like but must pass.What i would hope to see come out of all this is in 08 they change the wording to go one way or the other.If we need this many pages and can not answer it with out dought then it needs fixed.I really do not see a lot of danger involved here.

George Stolz · Apr 10, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
...I think that this is crystal clear.

Yeah, me too.

jimwalker · Apr 11, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Anything taking 2 weeks and 30 pages is anything but crystal clear

[ April 11, 2005, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

dillon3c · Apr 11, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

To Inspector KTurner.If you don't mind me asking

: I see Violation,In starting from Article 100,Definitions of the said outlet/lighting outlet through:
"you must follow it through"

Articles of NEC 2005
210.11(c)(1)specified by 210.52(b)
210.23(a)Exception:S/A branch circuits.Note only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.
210.52(b)(1)the dining rm.& Exception (1)&(2)
210.52(b)(2):not found here in exception.
210.70 Lighting outlets required:If lighting outlet not present,Switched receptacle outlet from general-purpose branch circuit .

:Now,I'd like clarification from a INSPECTOR'S point of view, please form members :

:If article 210.70,is not satisfied!Then:
What circuit will you be switching ? What will you call/identify this circuit as.If it is the ONLY circuit present in that DINING ROOM..
(1)will you designate it as a S/A circuit?
(if so,where has 210.70 & 210.52 Except.(1)been satisfied)

(2)If you designate as 210.70 & 210.52
( where has associated mandatory articles in my above,been satisfied)

Note:You can't have it both ways.You CAN'T call SAME Circuit,by Two(2) differant definition names so:

- What are we calling the circuit ? Inspector,please elaborate? This Circuit is Identified,on prints and labled in the panel schedule as:________________ -fill it in Inspector..
( one circuit present in that dining room ) Help me get my mind around this too Inspector..

--->Dillon

[ April 11, 2005, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

George Stolz · Apr 11, 2005

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

"Dining Room & Fridge"

I'm sorry Dillon: I am compelled to answer, bud.

210.70 puts no restrictions on which circuit does the job.

My view about 210.52(B)(1)exception 1 is most clear if you change the words: "as defined" to "for the purpose defined." Notice that no GPBC is defined in 210.70(A)(1).

Edit to add:

Note:You can't have it both ways.You CAN'T call SAME Circuit,by Two(2) differant definition names so:

It is a small appliance branch circuit.

The definition of "Branch Circuit, Appliance" permits cord-and-plug connected lamps (since it prohibits permanently connected ones).

( one circuit present in that dining room ) Help me get my mind around this too Inspector..

The only place the 2 SA circuits are required in the same area is 210.52(B)(3). Both circuits are required to be present on the kitchen counter spaces. The other rooms can have just one of them.

In 210.52(B)(1), it states that the two circuits shall supply a bunch of rooms, but it is not worded as (B)(3) is, read it closely. (B)(3) explicitly states that two circuits will be present on the countertops.

Consider (the rooms) in (B)(1) as a group that need to be served by (2+ SA circuits). Each room could be served by one, but the group as a whole needs to be served by two or more.

[ April 11, 2005, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

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