Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

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iwire

iwire

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Massachusetts
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by physis:
I'm not even gonna look it up or try to think about this, but isn't it the same arguement? :D
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Well yes it is. :D

A single receptacle outlet can not serve an individual branch circuit and a general purpose branch circuit.


Branch Circuit, General-Purpose. A branch circuit that supplies two or more receptacles or outlets for lighting and appliances.
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Branch Circuit, Individual. A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment.
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Its easy. :D
 
davedottcom

davedottcom

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by physis:
I'm not even gonna look it up or try to think about this, but isn't it the same arguement? :D
Click to expand...
LOL!

No it's not the same, cause it's NOT in a Dining room! It's in a living room AND no, it doesn't require a seperate circuit even though I'm running one. (In case they ever upgrade the AC)
I was mainly trying to see if it is EVER possible to have (1) outlet "Satisfy" (2) completely different requirements.

Just trying to push this thread to 400!
It is relative to this thread...sort of.
:p

Dave
 
K

kturner

Member
Location
East Tennessee
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

The reason I had to change my mind on this issue is this. The requirements in 210.52 create the expectation that the same restrictions will also appear in 210.70. As I read Exc.1 to 210.70A1, my mind would subconsciously add ,"These switched receptacles shall be in addition to the receptacle outlets required by 210.52 and shall be considered as lighting outlets rather than receptacle outlets." That's what you want it to say, that's what was probably intended, but that's not what it says. Thank goodness it makes no difference in any rooms other than dining and breakfast rooms. The exception permits switched receptacles to be used in lieu of lighting outlets, period. As written, we can't install a dining room fixture on the SA circuit, but nothing prevents a receptacle on the SA circuit from being switched in lieu of a lighting outlet. This is an absurdity, which is what was so disturbing to me.
The only explanation I can offer for the handbook prohibition would be that 210.70 is about required lighting outlets that by definition must be served by general purpose branch circuits. Maybe we are supposed to assume in the absense of any circuiting requirements in 210.70 that any outlet installed to satisfy 210.70 must be served by a GPBC because its a lighting requirement? Is this covered in the style manual? The prohibition has been in the handbook since 1990,if its wrong you'd think somebody would have caught it in 16 years!
This subject is probably good for another 100 posts, at least. :D
 
K

kturner

Member
Location
East Tennessee
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

FWIW, I've never encountered this situation in 21 years that I can recall. If I did, I'd probably reject it, cite 210.52B2, and hope they've never seen this thread. :D :D
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

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Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by iwire:
I have yet to see a view strong enough from the 'other side' that will beat my flimsy opinion. :D
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There's a book on the subject, affectionately titled "Page 24." :D

JW, I find it amazing that you have progressed to using terms such as "can be" and "permitted" yet come to the conclusion that a separate circuit is required.

Guys, there's no mandatory statement. They're all permissive statements. What prey would the other permitted method be? ;)

Originally posted by iwire:
IMO in this case you can not use one outlet to satisfy two requirements.
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What makes this case special to you?
Yes 210.70 is satisfied but your argument is unconvincing as to a 210.52(B)(2).
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210.11(C)(1) states clearly that the two SA "circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified in 210.52(B). "Shall" is a mandatory statement. Any receptacle in the areas specified in 210.52(B) shall be on the SA circuits, no questions asked.

210.52(B) slackens the reins a little, but he rule still applies.

A deviation from a rule does not override the rule. An exception does not destroy a code, it pokes tiny holes in it.

That's my answer to 210.52(B)(1) and (2)'s exceptions.

See any code: take 250.68(A), exception 1. Does this entail that every grounding electrode that is driven will be totally buried and shall not be accessible? If a grounding electode connection to a driven electrode is accessible it is in violation?
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Mr. kturner it does say that it is required to be on a general propouse circuit here;

210.52 (B) (1) Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

What is defined in 210.70 (A) (1) exception 1? What is this to be supplied by? What does 210.70 require us to do? Do you think I watch this thread closely? Do you think I will ever change my mind?
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by kturner:
FWIW, I've never encountered this situation in 21 years that I can recall. If I did, I'd probably reject it, cite 210.52B2, and hope they've never seen this thread. :D :D
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That's the funny thing. Bob said to run it past my inspector, see what he thinks. I don't have four hours to spend getting this across! :D
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Originally posted by kturner:
FWIW, I've never encountered this situation in 21 years that I can recall. If I did, I'd probably reject it, cite 210.52B2, and hope they've never seen this thread. :D :D
Click to expand...
That's the funny thing. Bob said to run it past my inspector, see what he thinks. I don't have four hours to spend getting this across! :D
Click to expand...
No need to, just print out this page and let him read it.

;)
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I totally agree with you 100 percent that the exception to 210.52 (B) (1) is permissive, but, Article 210.70 is mandatory.

As blind as I am there is one thing that I see in full detail and that is this;

While installing the small appliance circuits as outlined in 210.52 (B) I find an exception that allows me to install a general purpose switched receptacle that refers me to 210.70 (A) (1) exception 1. If we use this permissive exception to switch a receptacle as outlined in the exception in 210.52 by the exception itself it is required to be on a general purpose circuit.

I see that what YOU are talking about switching is 210.52 (B), So the exception to 210.52 is where we will stop to read the first exception which clearly states that this is to be on a general purpose circuit

I see that when we are installing the lighting circuit as outlined in 210.70 which is a general purpose circuit that we are allowed to switch the receptacle with out being told that it is a general purpose circuit.

I see that you are trying to take the exception from 210.70 and apply it to 210.52 with out applying the exception that is already in place in 210.52 which clearly states it is to be a general purpose circuit.
Why do you think that the words ?general purpose circuit? was added to 210.52 and not to 210.70?

:cool:
 
physis

physis

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

JW, you can completely forget about the exception to 210.70(A) being mentioned in 210.52. It doesn't change a thing. It shouldn't even be brought up there because it's comepletely meaningless to redirect someones attention to it when it has absolutely no effect on the application of 210.52. And it doesn't.

It's just plain awful code writing.
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Good deal Sam lets just stay with 210.52 (B) (1) exception 1.
What does it say?
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

Here it states that if I am going to use a switched receptacle in lieu of a lighting outlet that it is to be supplied by what?

Just finished my level three test now all I have to do is proof read it and double check the math. I did good, came in with two weeks to go.
Have a good night

[ April 10, 2005, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
D

dillon3c

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Sam,
In all due respect..

In JW's last two post,you still see grounds for a debate of explanation,pertaining to this thread...
 
physis

physis

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

JW, that's precisely the exception I'm talking about. It sould simply be deleted from the code because it changes nothing and therefor means nothing.

Here it states that if I am going to use a switched receptacle in lieu of a lighting outlet that it is to be supplied by what?
Click to expand...
It says "shall be permitted".

That is nothing like "is to be".

Edit: dillon3c, I don't understand what you mean. should I not participate anymore?

[ April 10, 2005, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
D

dillon3c

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Naw...Naw Sam,
Didn't mean to imply that.Always room for a good debate.I just agree with his postings in thread.Understandstanding in what JW is saying.Just interested,if you seen same..Thought he covered subject matter well...
 
physis

physis

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

He may have Dillon, but I still disagree with him. :D

If JW is still interested in illustrating his view, I can't help the occasional urge to point out where I see an error.

Not that I believe that only I can be right.
 
D

dillon3c

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Understood,
Sam.2:10 am in morning on east coast.Heading for pillow myself..You have a good morning sir..
 
physis

physis

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

You have a good night too sir.

It seems most of the people who post here are on your side of the tectonic plate. It's getting late here too, 2330 now.

Edit: It's usually right the second time.

[ April 10, 2005, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
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