Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

[jwelectric]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

George, bless your heart you still have excluded this;

210.52 (B) (1) Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

Edited to add?210.52 (B) (1) is where I am required to install the small appliance circuits and where I find the exception allowing the switched general propose receptacle

This exception allows me to comply with 210.70 (A) (1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

With out violating this article 210.52 (B) (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

Which has only two exceptions
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

If it was permissible to use the small appliance circuit in lieu of the required lighting outlet they would have added it in one of these exceptions just as it was outlined in the exception in 210.70 (A) (1) Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.

Now again I respectfully ask that you explain away these articles and exceptions before I jump the fence. I have been lying in bed counting the sheep that jumped the fence and lost count. This is what happens when I come home and take a two and a half hour nap before supper.

[ April 08, 2005, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I thought it was kind of cool that George dug up the Article 100 definition, (usually my bag), I didn't even think of it.

I gotta figure that by now, what ever side yur on, yur not bujjin.

Bob, Kturner and JW, bless your little hearts, you guys stay over there, where you guys are. And George, Jim, myself and all the other sofisticated yet brilliant perceivers of truth shall stay on our side, and walk freely amungst those who see. For we need no lighting outlet.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

JW, is another permitted method cancelling or augmenting the first?

Does 250.32(B) completely disallow 250.32(A)? Of course not. Same here.

The rule is, a 20 amp receptacle. The exception is, a 15 amp receptacle in the dining room only for lighting purposes, as 210.70 allows.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Sam, that's hilarious.

 

[kturner]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I am willing to admit that switching the SA outlet would allow you as the installer to say everything seemingly met the code when I left the job. But as soon as the occupant plugs in his lamp, which we know or should anticipate is going to happen, he's now in violation of 210.52B2. In my opinion, we have a duty under 210.70 to provide a code compliant lighting outlet in the dining room and we have two ways to do it. If we have no code compliant way of lighting this room, we're violating 210.70. We should not put the occupant in this position.

 

[kturner]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

No, I'm wrong again. A lamp is not an outlet, so we're not violating 210.52B2. George, I'm going to have to agree that due to wording used, it is code compliant. But obviously not what was intended and not a good design in my opinion.Kids watching this at home, please don't try this in East Tennessee. OK?

 

[69boss302]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Wow George your pulling them all over to your side of the fence. Ever think about political office?

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I think Bob's secretly on our side too but wont admitt it.

Edit: And I know that Bob wouldn't intentionally post on this thread again. So if he did, it would be an accidental posting and it wouldn't be his fault.

[ April 08, 2005, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[kturner]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I'm on the side that says it is permissible due to a poor choice of words, but is still not a good practice. I still have a nagging concern with 210.11. Even though we add the SA and GL loads together when applying demand factors, the kitchen and dining areas get counted twice- 3VA per sq. ft. for lighting and 3000VA for appliances. We have to include the dining area when determining the number of branch circuits needed for general lighting, so why not use that circuit? I know this could not be cited as a violation, but it is an argument for not using the SA circuit. Let's hang that chandilier and have some ice cream.

Thanks for the welcome and the whuppin, George.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

As many as wants can join the wrong side and that side will still be wrong.

Let?s look at the Definitions that George has made mention to;

Branch Circuit, Appliance . A branch circuit that supplies energy to one or more outlets to which appliances are to be connected and that has no permanently connected luminaires (lighting fixtures) that are not a part of an appliance.

Branch Circuit, General-Purpose. A branch circuit that supplies two or more receptacles or outlets for lighting and appliances.

By the very definition that George has used in his argument proves that a small appliance circuit can have no permanent light that is not part of the appliance.
It also states that a general-purpose circuit is used for lights.

210.70 states that a means must be provided for a light and that we can switch a receptacle for a cord and plug fixture if we so desire but we will install a light. In the exception it states that I can switch a receptacle instead of (in lieu of ) the light.

Now lets look at this; From the NEC Manual of Style;
2.6 Exceptions.
2.6.1 Placement and Order. Exceptions shall immediately follow the main rule to which they apply. Where exceptions are made to items within a numbered list, the exception shall clearly indicate the items within the list to which it applies. Exceptions containing the mandatory terms shall or shall not are to be listed first in the sequence. Permissive exceptions containing shall be permitted are to follow any mandatory exceptions and be listed in their order of importance as determined by the Code-Making Panel.

Based on the Manual of Style the exception for the switched receptacle falls under 210.70 ONLY and not under 210,52

Come on over to my house I have a couple gallons of milk and five pounds of sugar, we will have home made ice cream

edited to add
I will never be able to pass the number of post that this thread has unless I stop posting in it

[ April 08, 2005, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Let?s look at the Definitions that George has made mention to;

Branch Circuit, Appliance . A branch circuit that supplies energy to one or more outlets to which appliances are to be connected and that has no permanently connected luminaires (lighting fixtures) that are not a part of an appliance.

By the very definition that George has used in his argument proves that a small appliance circuit can have no permanent light that is not part of the appliance.

Good Lord, JW! Where is the permanently connected luminaire? If there was a permanently connected luminaire sticking out of the face of the receptacle, yes you'd be right. I've never seen one, have you?

Based on the Manual of Style the exception for the switched receptacle falls under 210.70 ONLY and not under 210,52

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Maybe you're missing that the exception to 210.52(B)(1) is permissive and not mandatory? See 90.5(B) and then look at your exception again. If that were the required means, then it would say "shall be required", not "shall be permitted."

Kturner, I readily admit it's never going to happen. That's a given.

I am purposely ignoring that little "23" in the corner now. Not for any records, just for clarity's sake.

Orignally posted by the boss:
Wow George your pulling them all over to your side of the fence.

I have one more to convert.

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Dang George, you have the Style Manual now?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I saw it once, scratched my head and put such nonsense out of my head. They need to restyle the style manual.

Where do I submit that proposal?

[ April 08, 2005, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

George with the utmost of respect to your attempt to avoid the issue you continue to dance around the code and leave out the required sections.

One last time I will spell it out then leave you to your own demise.

210.70 require that every room have a light. (A) Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified

Where? (A) (1) At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

What kind of light? Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.

Now we have established that we are required to have a light in every room and that instead of an over head light we can switch a receptacle for a lamp. This switched receptacle is now the required lighting outlet. The article with the exception that allows the switched receptacle to be used is the same one that required the light, 210.70.

The exception to 210.52 (B) (1) gives me permission to install a general purpose receptacle that is switched instead of the overhead light. The word the code uses to give this permission is ?lieu? and this means that the receptacle is now being used instead of an overhead light. This permission to use a receptacle as outlined in 210.70 (A) (1) exception 1 makes this receptacle the permanently connected luminaire that is required.

Now lets not forget about 210.52 (B) (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B) (1) shall have no other outlets.
There are a couple of exceptions but none that allow a light nor a receptacle that can be used in lieu of a light.

I am sorry if you cannot conceive this thought and hope that you never get called for it on a final inspection as it could be costly.

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I'd like to see them even bother to use it.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
George with the utmost of respect to your attempt to avoid the issue you continue to dance around the code and leave out the required sections.

From my seat, the sections you keep bringing up are what I am using to prove my case.

Edit to add in the point of my analogy.

[ April 09, 2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Well I disagree with JW that the receptacle is now a 'lighting outlet'.

All that aside the opening post was asking about switching a light in a china closet that was in addition to the required lighting outlets for the room.

I see no violation in that, no more so than providing a switch for the kitchen counter top outlets if the customer wanted to turn them off for childproofing for example.

I wonder if this thread will surpass my posts?

Bob

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

So when does the receptacle become an "other outlet", Bob? Is that all that's keeping you on that side of the fence?

JW, another analogy: Lighting outlet is to receptacle as sugar is to nutra-sweet.

Is nutra-sweet sugar?

I wonder if this thread will surpass my posts?

Call it the "No Body Left Behind Act."

 

[iwire]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
So when does the receptacle become an "other outlet",

The instant the installer decides to switch the receptacle and not provide any lighting outlets.

This should keep things rolling.

In a bedroom can you switch all the receptacle outlets?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by iwire:
The instant the installer decides to switch the receptacle and not provide any lighting outlets.

But 210.52(B) doesn't give a fig about the lighting situation. It simply wants all receptacles in eating areas to be on two or more SA circuits. Such an installation would comply.

I am a little confused how you can make the leap about recep's not being lighting outlets and still feel that way.

In a bedroom can you switch all the receptacle outlets?

Are we muddying the waters or adding an analogy?

No, IMO, because then the recep's required by 210.52 would be dependent on a switch. You could switch one half of all the duplexes and be compliant, IMO.