Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

[iwire]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
But 210.52(B) doesn't give a fig about the lighting situation. It simply wants all receptacles in eating areas to be on two or more SA circuits.

True but 210.52(B)(2) prohibits any other outlets served.

IMO as soon as that SA outlet becomes a switched receptacle in lieu of the required lighting outlet we have a violation of 210.52(B)(2).

You are trying to feed the required outlet for lighting with the SA circuit.

No different in my mind from trying to feed the laundry receptacle with the SA circuit.

Do we at least agree that the NEC requires in a dinning room a switched outlet of some type for lighting?

By the way we never feed lighting and receptacles from the same circuits at the jobs I work.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

[QUOTETrue but 210.52(B)(2) prohibits any other outlets served.

IMO as soon as that SA outlet becomes a switched receptacle in lieu of the required lighting outlet we have a violation of 210.52(B)(2).

You are trying to feed the required outlet for lighting with the SA circuit.

No different in my mind from trying to feed the laundry receptacle with the SA circuit.

Do we at least agree that the NEC requires in a dinning room a switched outlet of some type for lighting?

By the way we never feed lighting and receptacles from the same circuits at the jobs I work.

PCs hate 277 volt receptacles. ] [/QUOTE]

Bob,yes it forbids any other outlets.
I for one don't agree that when we use a switched SA receptacle that has a lamp plugged in has changed what it is .A SA outlet is just that no matter what we plug into it.If i plug in a washing machine it is still a SA outlet.If you look back several years ,we at one time permitted the outside required outlet to be on this SA circuit.And some used this either for landscape lighting,yard lights,x mas lights,lawn mowers,and even washing machines.It was not considered a hazard back then and many old home are still using them.
"Do we at least agree that the NEC requires in a dinning room a switched outlet of some type for lighting?" I believe thats what they intended but no i dont believe they said that.They used the keyword IN LIEU OF and that means instead of and does not mean EQUAL TO.

Bottom line is i would not likely ever get into such a situation.Have yet to ever see anything less than a switched outlet box offered in any dining room for lights.

Now if i was an inspector and required by my boss to provide code numbers on any red tags i write,then i would have a rough time flunking such an install.We must use the code as written and not as to what we think they meant to say.

 

[iwire]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I for one don't agree that when we use a switched SA receptacle that has a lamp plugged in has changed what it is .A SA outlet is just that no matter what we plug into it.

Jim I don't see that what gets plugged into it has any bearing here.

IMO what matters is what you installed the switched receptacle for.

Does the NEC require a switched outlet of some type for lighting in the dinning room?

That required outlet for lighting in whatever form is not there for SAs and if it is not there for the SAs then it is an 'other outlet'.

IMO when the installer decided a certain receptacle was to be the required switched outlet for lighting it was at that point the violation starts not by what the homeowner uses the outlet for.

I do agree this is a pointless discussion one that the answer to will not be found in these postings.

Only the inspector inspecting the work or the AHJ can make this call.....IMO

Bob

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

The key to my side of the argument is that, although the two codes are linked, they are not codependent. Once 210.70 is satisfied, then 210.52(B) must be satisfied.

So long as there is a switched receptacle in the room, 210.70 is satisfied, there's no violation. That section is satisfied, so no more thought needs to be devoted to it.

So long as a SA circuit supplies all of the receptacles in the dining room, 210.52(B) is satisfied.

When we attempt to deviate from having all the receptacles in the dining room fed from a SA circuit, then we need to start complying with the exceptions to that code.

There's nothing in the codes that tie them together into a cohesive principle, as you are attmpting to do.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

when the installer decided a certain receptacle was to be the required switched outlet for lighting it was at that point the violation starts not by what the homeowner uses the outlet for.

That part i agree on with you Bob.
And no we can never fully answer this question by using nec.
Only reason i could see in trying to do this is if i had 200 or 2500 of these that might save me some worth while money.Only smart way to go is to talk to the local ahj as it is really his opinion that counts.

 

[iwire]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
So long as there is a switched receptacle in the room, 210.70 is satisfied, there's no violation. That section is satisfied, so no more thought needs to be devoted to it.

Yes 210.70 is satisfied but your argument is unconvincing as to a 210.52(B)(2).

IMO in this case you can not use one outlet to satisfy two requirements.

Sorry George we just see it differently.

Run it by your inspectors they may very well see it your way.

Around here most folks want a ceiling lighting outlet in a dinning room, the switched receptacle is more often used in the living room.

 

[iwire]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

For what ever weight it carries here is the 2002 handbook commentary following 210.70(A)(1)

A receptacle is not permitted to be switched as a lighting outlet on a small-appliance branch circuit. A receptacle can be switched as a lighting outlet (in the dining room, for example) supplied by a branch circuit other than a small-appliance branch circuit. See Exhibit 210.26, which shows a dining room switched receptacle on a 15-ampere general-purpose branch circuit.

That is just another opinion take it for just that.

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

IMO in this case you can not use one outlet to satisfy two requirements

Flimsy.

 

[iwire]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by physis:
Flimsy.

As are many things that do the job.

I have yet to see a view strong enough from the 'other side' that will beat my flimsy opinion.

[ April 09, 2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

How do the rest of you feel about having a 15 amp receptacle in that dining room ?I see it as a much bigger hazard than pluging a lamp into a SA circuit.Nothing stops the customer from using it for a microwave,coffee maker,toaster,etc.
I have seen many a switch being taped in the on position because they dont want it used.The customer will not even think twice about pluging in a wall sconce into the other SA receptacles.I seen this first hand.Actually what they had done was cut the plug off ,fished lamp cord down inside of wall to the outlet below and wired it in.Never underestimate the wisdom of the DIY home owner.

 

[peter d]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

To heck with all this....I'm ripping all the wiring out of my house and going back to gas lamps.

Problem solved.

[ April 09, 2005, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
How do the rest of you feel about having a 15 amp receptacle in that dining room ?I see it as a much bigger hazard than pluging a lamp into a SA circuit.Nothing stops the customer from using it for a microwave,coffee maker,toaster,etc

Jim I do not think either is a hazard.

I can just as easily overload a muiltioutlet 20 amp circuit as a multioutlet 15 amp circuit.

My counter top convection oven and my 'hot shot' both draw 15 amps, use both on the same circuit and the 20 amp circuit is to small.

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I have yet to see a view strong enough from the 'other side' that will beat my flimsy opinion.

You know I've already posted it.

George too.

Peter, those things are still very cool for sail boats. You can get lamp oil anywhere in the world. Not too easy here though.

Edit: Oh, yeah, natural gas.

[ April 09, 2005, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Ok Bob but nec did not want us to plug anything in the dining room into a 15 amp general purpose branch.That is why it sayS to have 2 or more SA circuits.There exception makes no since to me.It is inviting it be used by a coffee maker.Lets think this out,if i had a buffet (table) on dining room wall that would be the likely place for both the lamp and coffee maker,would it not ?I know if i over load a 15 or a 20 the breaker should kick ,but i will overload a 15 a lot faster.Only way i would feel ok with allowing a 15 and a20 in dining room is if they were grouped together and labeled (warning this outlet for lights only)but that wont happen.And we all know that opinions in handbook are just that.Someone like Mike Holt could write a book to fill in all the gray areas of nec,but that would be just his opinion too.Believe me i would like to be able to say that nec forbids this light on a SA circuit but it does not.They perhaps never gave it thought that anyone would do this,then again maybe they did and gave us an option of adding a 15 amp outled.There wording was PERMITTED and not SHALL.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

As I have stated so many times before in this thread and no one here has explained it away, some have danced all around but no one has explained it.

Just what is the meaning of this exception to 210.52 (B) (1)?

Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

edited to ask, What is this exception talking about?

I understand this to mean that the light that is required by 210.70 can be this receptacle as the exception mentioned pertains to that requirement.

Maybe the next house I wire I should switch half of the laundry receptacle to fulfill the lighting outlet for the laundry room.

Jim
Does not the exception say that a switched receptacle shall be permitted instead of an overhead light? Is there anything to stop a home owner from using a drop cord to plug anything up any where they want?
This requirement is for the electrical contractor not the home owner.
210.52 (C) clearly states that we can not use the small appliance circuit for anything but the small appliances.

[ April 09, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

That exception was for lighting of all rooms other than kitchen and bathrooms.All it said was we could use a receptacle that we wall switch control.It was not singling out any one room.Had they not wanted us to use a switched receptacle in the dining room they would have added it to kitchens bathroom,diningroom.But they didn't,and they also did not say what receptacles we could use.If i was wiring in the dining room ,just what else would it be but a SA receptacle ?They did not give us any further directions other than we could do it.It never said" but if its in dining room add a 15 amp general purpose outlet"It said to just switch the receptacle and never singled out any one room.And it did not point us to any other code sections like they normally would have.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Look at it again Jim, I think you missed something

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. ---- (B) Small Appliances .------ (1) Receptacle Outlets Served.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

Take note that this exception is pertaining to Dwelling unit Small appliance Receptacle outlets so therefore ?in addition to the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1)? I am permitted to add a switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit to fulfill the requirements of 210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.

Let?s look at the two exceptions together;

210.52 (B) (1) Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.


210.70 (A) (1) Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.

Note that the exception in 210.52 clearly states that a general-purpose branch circuit can be used for, 210.70 exception, in lieu of lighting outlets. 210.70 clearly state that some sort of means will be provided for a light weather an overhead fixture or a switched receptacle.

[ April 09, 2005, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by iwire:


IMO in this case you can not use one outlet to satisfy two requirements.

Bob, I know you said "In this case" but this brings up a completely different situation I was wondering about!
If you have a seperate 20 amp receptacle for a wall AC unit located within the first 6 ft of a wall space, does it also satisfy 210.52 (A)(1) ?

Dave

 

[iwire]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by davedottcom:
If you have a seperate 20 amp receptacle for a wall AC unit located within the first 6 ft of a wall space, does it also satisfy 210.52 (A)) ?

IMO it would depend on if the AC requires an individual branch circuit.

If the AC requires an individual branch circuit then IMO the receptacle can not be counted as one of the required wall outlets.

If the AC can be plugged into a GP outlet then I would say it can be counted.

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I'm not even gonna look it up or try to think about this, but isn't it the same arguement?