Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

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davedottcom

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

I'm really glad I didn't check the box that said the following when I started this thread!
Email Notification: emails sent to you whenever someone replies.
:eek:

Dave
 

southernboys

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

tried to stay away but would these other recepts be slaved off gfi if so it wont fly here in alaBAMA since we cant have more then 3 slaves good night and let this horse die shes been ridden hard and put up wet one too many times
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Yeah, but when you make a horse out a carbon stainless and titanium, put twin 454's in 'er, strap a solid fuel rocket booster on her butt and tie on a cape, it aint gonna stop till it's done!
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by kturner:
Since bullets are flying,this is definitely my last post on this subject.
Nah, the bullets were flying a week ago. Now it's just target practice. Don't run off, you've got an interesting take on it. I'm not sold, by any stretch, but I think you've got an interesting angle.

Since the SA and Laundry's are allowed to be demanded with general lighting and recep load per 220.52, I'd say it's a dead approach. If you can breathe life into it, there'll be an ice cream waiting. :D
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Same load on the service conductors either way. And you'd size feeders after you know what they'll be powering.
 

kturner

Member
Location
East Tennessee
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

George, are you saying that the code, as written, does not require a lighting outlet in a dining room? I think the whole disagreement is in the interpretation of 210.70A1& Exc.1.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

If we look in this post we might find a suprise
"Question about Bonding Structural steel"
I haven't learned how to grab that link yet but I still love my picture that i figured out how to psot. Bless my heart
 

roger

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Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Jw, I think you've got it down pat.
icon14.gif


Roger
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by kturner:
George, are you saying that the code, as written, does not require a lighting outlet in a dining room? I think the whole disagreement is in the interpretation of 210.70A1& Exc.1.
No. I'm saying that I don't believe Article 220 is going to aid your argument, if you believe that a switched receptacle (installed in the attempt to comply with 210.70(A)(1), exception 1) cannot be powered from on SA circuit in a dining room.
 

kturner

Member
Location
East Tennessee
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Not 220, 210.11, which are basic rules that apply to branch circuits generally.But the real confusion is with 210.70A1 Exc.1. The receptacles described here are not receptacle outlets as used in 210.52. We are not being permitted to switch any receptacle outlets by this exception, we're being permitted to switch a receptacle in lieu of a lighting outlet.Subtle difference in wording, but big difference in meaning. We have actually redefined a receptacle to be a lighting outlet in this paragraph. Once you understand that this "receptacle in lieu of lighting outlet" is indeed a lighting outlet and not a receptacle outlet, the code rules and intent becomes much clearer. Lighting outlet. Receptacle vs. receptacle outlet. Code mumbo-jumbo at its very best.
 

kturner

Member
Location
East Tennessee
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Jeez, surely I can do better than that. The general rule of 210.70 says to provide a switch- controlled lighting outlet, which would normally be an outlet box with a fixture installed on it. The exception is saying that rather than install a fixture, I may install a receptacle device in that same outlet box in lieu of a fixture. It now looks just like a receptacle outlet, but it's not.It is still a lighting outlet with a duplex mounted in it.
It's easy to criticize the way the code is written, but finding better language is tough.
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

If you wanted to have dinner at ABC restraunt but they are full,and the owner knowing your a great customer offers you a free movie pass in at his friends theater in LIEU OF DINNER you do not get dinner you get a movie.
If i don't give you a switched lighting outlet but give you a switched receptacle in LIEU of a light outlet,then you do not get a light outlet.

I am just reading what they printed,it probably is not what they had in mind ,but thats not our problem.They need to take a look at what they said and re write if needed
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by kturner:
If we go back to 210.11, we have to allow 3VA per sq. ft. for our dining room and we have to provide adequate general lighting circuits to serve the load.
3 VA/sq.ft is a value given to us by Table 220.12, I assumed you had a typo, given the "3 VA" reference.
The SA circuits are in addition to the general lighting circuits and there is no reason for putting lights on them.That's why they're called appliance circuits.
And my response was, since the SA's are included with the GPBC's in demanding the load, that's not valid reasoning. My thinking is, "according to Article 220, SABC's are as diverse as the GPBC's, so we will not only demand them evenly, but lump them together and demand them as if they were the same thing."

Look at the definition of "Branch Circuit, Appliance."
A branch circuit that supplies energy to one or more outlets to which appliances are connected and have no permanently connected luminaires (lighting fixture) that are not a part of an appliance.
They could have phrased that a dozen different ways, but this is how it reads. "...and have no permanently connected luminaires" That wording explicitly targets permanent fixtures, and blatantly ignores freestanding, cord-and-plug connected light fixtures.

Look at 210.70(A)(1), exception 1: "In other than kitchens and bathrooms..." CMP-2 are cross-reference junkies. They are hopelessly addicted to proving they know where related code sections are. Do you really think they would overlook the opportunity to cite 210.52(B) as a whole, if they intended to specifically target the SA circuits as being protected from this exception?

Remember, the handbook is written (according to the picture of the front cover, tucked into the inside cover of my 2005 NEC) by four authors. Four. Do you think that in the course of expounding on a book already 800 pages long, that on occasion they might not be 100% accurate in their illustrations? Intent aside, the text is the determining factor in what is legal.

A switched receptacle is not a lighting outlet, it is not a steak dinner. It is a switched receptacle. That's what the text says. :D (Just kidding, guys!)

[ April 07, 2005, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 

kturner

Member
Location
East Tennessee
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Ouch! That was a thoroughly good whuppin George, but I deserved it. My comments were poorly prepared and more opinion than fact. I should have known that wouldn't get by here. Sorry, I'll try to do better or keep quiet.

He lured me with ice cream. :(
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

George you have done good above except in all of your references you have not yet mentioned article 210.52 (B) (1) exception 1 nor 210.52 (B) (2) with exceptions. If you can explain these away I will jump the fence.

One added note, unless we let this come to an end I will never be able to out post the number of post in this thread, although I love this thread.

Has one ever went this long?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
...210.52 (B) (1) exception 1 nor 210.52 (B) (2) with exceptions.

If you can explain these away I will jump the fence.
210.52(B)(1) requires all receptacles in the eating areas to be on a SA circuit. Therefore this switched receptacle on the SA circuit complies with that reference. I don't need to reference an exception to this code. Why would you have to justify the presence of a required receptacle?

If you stray from a rule, you need an exception to keep it legal. Agreed?

Therefore, if you choose to install a 15-amp receptacle for the same purpose, you have to be given an exception from the rule to do so. Without that exception, what would you be left with? A dining room with no lighting outlet (which is okay by 210.70's exception) requiring a switched receptacle. Without the exception, you would be required to use the SA circuit. As it stands, you are required to use the SA circuit, but you are allowed an exception for the purpose outlined in 210.70.

As for 210.52(B)(2): I'm rethinking how to word this, other than, there are no other outlets. The SA circuit is for receptacles in eating areas. This is a receptacle in an eating area. Compliant.

Again, it's the belief "that a switched receptacle is a lighting outlet" that's causing all this controversy. If you believe my last argument that this is not true, the rest should fall into place. Jump the fence, JW! :D

Edit: For 210.52(B)(2)'s exceptions. I have no need for using them, to make that clear again. They do provide clues, though, and I know that's what you're getting at.

Since 210.52(B)(1) states that wall, counter and floor receptacles are to be fed from the SA circuits, my best offering for these exceptions in (B)(2) is that the receptacles listed in exception 2 might no be considered wall/counter/floor outlets due to the fact that they are concealed behind a range. They are for an appliance that is all but fixed in place, with could constitute a violation, as that is definutely not a small appliance, regardless of it's small load. So, an exception is included to allow that small load.

To use that exception in analogy to our situation confirms my case. A range is a large appliance, regardless of load, and a freestanding cord-and-plug connected lamp is definutely not. And that these small loads are considered acceptable from the SA's standpoint, that confirms that even if you were to consider the lamp to weigh 100 pounds, it's small load would be permissible on the SA circuit.

But again, that's assuming a lamp would get plugged into it in the first place. An assumption that 210.70(A)(1) exception 1 never explicitly states. We make that assumption, the code doesn't. :D

[ April 07, 2005, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
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