Tapping off smoke alarm circuit allowed ?

[jxofaltrds]

I will not win this battle however it appears to me that the manf. wants nothing interfering with the smokes.

I see no problem branching out prior to the first smoke not after that point. These are to be installed in series. I couldn't link the instruction manual however you can go here: http://www.brkelectronics.com/faqs/professionallyinstalled/how_do_i_install_hardwired_brk_alarms

 

[Ponchik]

Why do we like to make things complicated??

To the OP.

Yes you can tap off of the smoke alarm wiring/circuit.

If you do tap into the interconnection wire you will not get any useful voltage out of it, so it will be useless.

 

[Ponchik]

I will not win this battle however it appears to me that the manf. wants nothing interfering with the smokes.

I see no problem branching out prior to the first smoke not after that point. These are to be installed in series. I couldn't link the instruction manual however you can go here: http://www.brkelectronics.com/faqs/professionallyinstalled/how_do_i_install_hardwired_brk_alarms

I still don't see any issue past the 1st smoke alarm or even the last alarm.

"Installed in series" So if one smoke alarms gets disconnected the rest are dead??

 

[gadfly56]

I still don't see any issue past the 1st smoke alarm or even the last alarm.

"Installed in series" So if one smoke alarms gets disconnected the rest are dead??

No, that doesn't happen. Generally. If you look at the installation instructions for a typical 120VAC detector, there's a connector of some sort that's pre-wired and plugs into the alarm device. The connector is shown as wired with pigtails, so there's no in/out on the connector. See page 10 of here. If you drop a smoke alarm, all the others will still ring on alarm. This also means there's no supervision, which is a serious weakness in smoke alarm installations generally. The code would allow you to go up to 42 devices, IIRC, if you could provide supervision.

 

[jxofaltrds]

No, that doesn't happen. Generally. If you look at the installation instructions for a typical 120VAC detector, there's a connector of some sort that's pre-wired and plugs into the alarm device. The connector is shown as wired with pigtails, so there's no in/out on the connector. See page 10 of here. If you drop a smoke alarm, all the others will still ring on alarm. This also means there's no supervision, which is a serious weakness in smoke alarm installations generally. The code would allow you to go up to 42 devices, IIRC, if you could provide supervision.

I'll start with this:

B. To additional units; Maximum = 18 total (Maximum 12 Smoke Alarms)
http://www.brkelectronics.com/faqs/professionallyinstalled/how_do_i_install_hardwired_brk_alarms

From your link:

"? A maximum of 24 Kidde Safety devices may be interconnected
in a multiple station arrangement. The interconnect system
should not exceed the NFPA interconnect limit of 12 smoke
alarms and/or 18 alarms total (smoke, CO, Smoke/ CO
Combination, heat, etc.). With 18 alarms interconnected, it is
still possible to interconnect up to a total of 6 remote signaling
devices and /or relay modules (see page 15 for details on
interconnecting Kidde devices).."


"The multiple station interconnect
wiring to the alarms must be run in the same raceway or cable
as the AC power wiring."

I still do not see where a 'tap' is allowed...


And a wiring diagram from the same!

 

[Ponchik]

No, that doesn't happen. Generally. If you look at the installation instructions for a typical 120VAC detector, there's a connector of some sort that's pre-wired and plugs into the alarm device. The connector is shown as wired with pigtails, so there's no in/out on the connector. See page 10 of here. If you drop a smoke alarm, all the others will still ring on alarm. This also means there's no supervision, which is a serious weakness in smoke alarm installations generally. The code would allow you to go up to 42 devices, IIRC, if you could provide supervision.

I know how they are wired in parallel with a pigtail connector and if one is removed the rest will operate just fine.

I was questioning the word "SERIES" that Inspector Mike had mentioned in his post.

 

[gaelectric]

I have a lot of respect for the members of this forum. My go to place when I have a question. I can almost always find the answer here.

But this is the dumbest thread that I've ever seen here. A smoke detector is almost no load at all. Eight of them would probably only be an amp or two. Why in the world would you ever think that you couldn't branch off of that circuit for additional outlets?

 

[jxofaltrds]

I have a lot of respect for the members of this forum. My go to place when I have a question. I can almost always find the answer here.

But this is the dumbest thread that I've ever seen here. A smoke detector is almost no load at all. Eight of them would probably only be an amp or two. Why in the world would you ever think that you couldn't branch off of that circuit for additional outlets?

You can! The question is where?

 

[GoldDigger]

... Why in the world would you ever think that you couldn't branch off of that circuit for additional outlets?

Because what works just great and what is allowed by Code are not always the same, of course.
But the consensus seems to be that not only can you share the circuit with other loads but you can make those load interconnections anywhere along the circuit conductors.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Because what works just great and what is allowed by Code are not always the same, of course.
But the consensus seems to be that not only can you share the circuit with other loads but you can make those load interconnections anywhere along the circuit conductors.

The circuit conductors yes. Not: "The multiple station interconnect
wiring to the alarms must be run in the same raceway or cable
as the AC power wiring."

It happens that wiring also provides power to down stream smokes. They are not branch circuit conductors as we 'know' them.

 

[GoldDigger]

The circuit conductors yes. Not: "The multiple station interconnect
wiring to the alarms must be run in the same raceway or cable
as the AC power wiring."

It happens that wiring also provides power to down stream smokes. They are not branch circuit conductors as we 'know' them.

Ah, there is the interesting part. If the interconnect wiring has to be run in the same raceway or cable as the AC power wiring, does that suddenly change the nature of the AC power wiring (which is just incidentally sharing that same raceway or cable) from circuit wiring to dedicated smoke detector wiring? I am willing to argue that it does not. I am also willing to argue that it does. Leaving it up to the AHJ, I guess.
An interesting thought: Is there any operational reason not to use three conductor wiring all the way from the panel, to allow future smokes to be added anywhere along the way? With the red wire capped and labelled, of course.
And since the diagram shows only a linear configuration, does that prohibit using y's/taps to construct the interconnected network of smokes?

 

[iwire]

It happens that wiring also provides power to down stream smokes. They are not branch circuit conductors as we 'know' them.

You are saying some really crazy things here Mike, they are branch circuit conductors to the entire population under the NEC except to you.

 

[PetrosA]

I will not win this battle however it appears to me that the manf. wants nothing interfering with the smokes.

I see no problem branching out prior to the first smoke not after that point. These are to be installed in series. I couldn't link the instruction manual however you can go here: http://www.brkelectronics.com/faqs/professionallyinstalled/how_do_i_install_hardwired_brk_alarms

I'm not understanding how tapping off the 120V feed to the smoke detectors qualifies as "connecting" anything to them. The way I read it, connecting to the detector is done via the orange wire, so that only applies to the red wire in a three-wire NM cable and tapping off the black, white and ground to feed something else makes it no more "connected" to the smoke detector in this context that the POCO transformer is.

 

[George Stolz]

And since the diagram shows only a linear configuration, does that prohibit using y's/taps to construct the interconnected network of smokes?

Surely you can't pull two smokes from the first?!? Or even three from one outlet box?!? Unheard of, it's not in the picture!

I just don't understand the motivation behind this thread. There are enough decent inspectors making bad calls based on bad reads of information. I see no benefit in indulging an intelligent inspector who knows better promoting a ludicrous concept that a lesser inspector without an electrical background might accidentally take up "because he saw it on Mike Holt's." This possibility leads me to suggest closing this silly thread and being done with it.

I'm sure we've all had inspections by former electricians who had wives tales driven into them as "code" and continue to inspect by their incorrect training. This is like witnessing the birth of a wives tale first hand, and it doesn't sit well at all.

 

[jxofaltrds]

If this is so stupid explain to me why they make certain statements in the instructions?

Why talk about the distance between the first and last if you 'spider out' at the first smoke?

Seems clear to me, and I have always installed them this way, to run one to the 2nd to the 3rd and so on.

 

[John120/240]

I'll start with this:

B. To additional units; Maximum = 18 total (Maximum 12 Smoke Alarms)
http://www.brkelectronics.com/faqs/professionallyinstalled/how_do_i_install_hardwired_brk_alarms

From your link:

"? A maximum of 24 Kidde Safety devices may be interconnected
in a multiple station arrangement. The interconnect system
should not exceed the NFPA interconnect limit of 12 smoke
alarms and/or 18 alarms total (smoke, CO, Smoke/ CO
Combination, heat, etc.). With 18 alarms interconnected, it is
still possible to interconnect up to a total of 6 remote signaling
devices and /or relay modules (see page 15 for details on
interconnecting Kidde devices).."




View attachment 11222

The last paragraph in the above document gives the maximum circuit length as 1,000 ft (300 meters). If you spider out from the first to all of them I don't see a conflict as long as you don't exceed 1,000 ft of wire. Now that is a lot of wire.

 

[Strombea]

Lets Simplify

Lets Simplify

The attached image is a legal circuit!!!

 

[John120/240]

The attached image is a legal circuit!!!

View attachment 11234

It's interesting.Where is this from ? Do you have any documentation from the author with his credentials ?

 

[Strombea]

I will not win this battle however it appears to me that the manf. wants nothing interfering with the smokes.

I see no problem branching out prior to the first smoke not after that point. These are to be installed in series. I couldn't link the instruction manual however you can go here: http://...

jxofaltrds- Be sure you know what you are saying here, "These are to be installed in series."

Series would mean that when someone takes a smoke down cuz its too close to the kitchen, the rest of the smokes no longer work, That would be series.
A signal (red) wire sending a pulse to the rest of the signal wires IN PARALLEL is not a series, it is simply sending a signal, much like when you flip a switch on it allows the alternating current go to the light but still not a series. Thus it makes no difference if there is a light between smokes on the same hot wire.

 

[jxofaltrds]

jxofaltrds- Be sure you know what you are saying here, "These are to be installed in series."

Series would mean that when someone takes a smoke down cuz its too close to the kitchen, the rest of the smokes no longer work, That would be series.
A signal (red) wire sending a pulse to the rest of the signal wires IN PARALLEL is not a series, it is simply sending a signal, much like when you flip a switch on it allows the alternating current go to the light but still not a series. Thus it makes no difference if there is a light between smokes on the same hot wire.

Installed in series. YES. Tapped at each new smoke.

We can argue series and parallel but I am using the manf. "words".

IMHO series means from #1 to #2 to #3 to #4 etc.