Tapping off smoke alarm circuit allowed ?

[George Stolz]

If this is so stupid explain to me why they make certain statements in the instructions?

Why talk about the distance between the first and last if you 'spider out' at the first smoke?

Seems clear to me, and I have always installed them this way, to run one to the 2nd to the 3rd and so on.

View attachment 11230

Seems clear to me that they were concerned that their target reader might not know where to purchase "common household electric wire" which is apparently listing talk for a Chapter 3 wiring method. I don't suppose they kept it extremely simple for a homeowner to follow; it's more likely that they are trying to pass on important listing information that wouldn't fit in NFPA 72, 70, or the White Book.

 

[jxofaltrds]

You have yet to show anything at all that even hints that it is prohibited.

You are correct! I'll stop reading the instructions that come with any product that I install.

The individuals who write these instructions are too stupid to understand building codes.

They could just hire those here and fire their legal staff who probably told them what to include.

 

[GoldDigger]

Installed in series. YES. Tapped at each new smoke.

We can argue series and parallel but I am using the manf. "words".

IMHO series means from #1 to #2 to #3 to #4 etc.

If I had to come up with a terse way of naming what you describe, I would say they are wired in sequence, not in series.
With the pigtail installation shown you could smash a smoke or cut it out of the system without affecting any downstream device.
With a series connection that would not be the case.

 

[jxofaltrds]

If I had to come up with a terse way of naming what you describe, I would say they are wired in sequence, not in series.
With the pigtail installation shown you could smash a smoke or cut it out of the system without affecting any downstream device.
With a series connection that would not be the case.

Correct!

 

[mkgrady]

Make sure that you do not run an ECG with those three conductors. They don't show it in the picture so you can't install it. Also if you pull individual conductors through conduit make sure the ungrounded conductor is black and the signal wire is red. That's what the picture shows so those are the only colors that will meet code.

What a goofball thread this is.

 

[jaylectricity]

jxofaltrds, please, just stop. You are spouting a ridiculous notion that has been debunked a number of times in this thread alone. Your comebacks of "Well that's what the instruction book says" don't even make any sense.

The most dangerous thing, as George Stoltz mentioned upthread is:

There are currently 4 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 3 guests)


That's 3 people that aren't registered users that are getting this misinformation from you. And that's just at this very moment.

 

[mjc763]

I honestly think mike should admit he was wrong, there is no shame in it, we all make mistakes and that's fine as long as we learn from them.

 

[jxofaltrds]

jxofaltrds, please, just stop. You are spouting a ridiculous notion that has been debunked a number of times in this thread alone. Your comebacks of "Well that's what the instruction book says" don't even make any sense.

The most dangerous thing, as George Stoltz mentioned upthread is:

There are currently 4 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 3 guests)


That's 3 people that aren't registered users that are getting this misinformation from you. And that's just at this very moment.

I honestly think mike should admit he was wrong, there is no shame in it, we all make mistakes and that's fine as long as we learn from them.

We are having a debate.

This forum is no different than:

90.1 Purpose.
(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.



I showed the instructions - all you did is call me stupid. Guess you win!

PS 3 people are smarter now!

 

[fastest48]

WOW!!! I'm sure glad Mike is not in my jurisdiction. Unfortunately, there are some that are and have to deal with this type of nonsense. "Wired in series" LOL :lol:

 

[jaylectricity]

We are having a debate.

This forum is no different than:

90.1 Purpose.
(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

View attachment 11239

I showed the instructions - all you did is call me stupid. Guess you win!

PS 3 people are smarter now!

I didn't call you stupid. But I am beginning to question your reading comprehension. You did not show me anything in the instructions that relates to the original post. You just keep pointing at it and saying, "See?"

 

[edlee]

I don't get it Inspector Mike. You posted and highlighted in yellow a bit of wiring instructions that to me don't have anything to do with your point. "Don't cross the hot and neutral between detectors"? In other words, don't reverse the polarity. Do licensed electricians need to be told this? I don't think so.

That's why someone commented that the instructions are oriented to homeowners(or something like that anyway). You'll have to come up with something more authoritative than that to persuade anyone here!

My take is that manufacturers are always telling us what not to do to their products, so as to prevent failures, phone calls, or even lawsuits. If it were important to the working system that nothing else be connected past the first detector, they would print it multiple times in bold letters....which they haven't.

Nuff said.

 

[James L]

The 120 volt portion of a smoke detector circuit is inconsequential to the operation of the detectors. Just like when you use wireless interconnected smoke detectors. power circuit is irrelevant

And the limit on how many can be on one circuit is due to the strength of the interconnect signal, not the 120 volt load. Even wireless units have limits on how many can be "connected" together, and signal distance is a factor there, too.

This one lists a maximum of smoke detectors to be "interconnected"
http://www.brkelectronics.com/faqs/oem/how-many-smoke-alarms-can-be-interconnected

This wireless unit even has a signal strength indicator on it:
http://www.pyronix.com/smoke-wireless-sensor.php

The interconnected part is the signal only, whether wired or wireless signal. If you have wireless interconnected smokes, there isn't even a 120 volt circuit going form one to the other - only signal


I have wired smoke detectors in a spider (for lack of a better word) because it was easier than daisy-chaining them. They work just fine like that.

I have also had scenarios where ---> I needed a circuit for an attic fan in a two story house with a finished basement. Instead of trying to fish a circuit, I would simply unhook the smoke detector feed, wherever it came from. Then run a separate circuit from the panel to the smokes, then jump off the smokes in the attic.

Works like a champ. Saves a lot of time, and I got the circuit in the attic without fishing - or tearing up sheetrock


About a month ago, I was adding a t.v. receptacle in the ceiling of a rear porch. The closest power was a smoke detector in the living room. Guess where I powered the t.v. from? Smoke detector. And it was about third in the chain.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I don't get it Inspector Mike. You posted and highlighted in yellow a bit of wiring instructions that to me don't have anything to do with your point. "Don't cross the hot and neutral between detectors"? In other words, don't reverse the polarity. Do licensed electricians need to be told this? I don't think so.

That's why someone commented that the instructions are oriented to homeowners(or something like that anyway). You'll have to come up with something more authoritative than that to persuade anyone here!

My take is that manufacturers are always telling us what not to do to their products, so as to prevent failures, phone calls, or even lawsuits. If it were important to the working system that nothing else be connected past the first detector, they would print it multiple times in bold letters....which they haven't.
Nuff said.

Don't cross the hot and neutral between detectors"? If I tap off of the smokes and plug a lamp into a receptacle have I crossed two conductors?

Why are you smarter and allowed to second guess why a manf. put something in the instructions?

they would print it multiple times in bold letters....which they haven't

Let me:

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

 

[gadfly56]

Don't cross the hot and neutral between detectors"? If I tap off of the smokes and plug a lamp into a receptacle have I crossed two conductors?

Why are you smarter and allowed to second guess why a manf. put something in the instructions?

they would print it multiple times in bold letters....which they haven't

Let me:

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The admonition against crossing the hot and neutral applies to general power circuits anyway. I doubt that many electricians here are likely to tap the hot off the smoke alarm and land it on the neutral screw at a receptacle. That warning is, IMO, meant for the weekend wizard installing his own detectors. It has nothing to do with the smoke detectors being wired "in series". There is nothing wrong with, and others have indicated it may be required, having lighting or receptacles on the same circuit as the smoke alarms. I do not recall in the NEC or NFPA 72 anything about said ligting or receptacles being required to be only before or after the smoke alarms.

 

[iwire]

Don't cross the hot and neutral between detectors"? If I tap off of the smokes and plug a lamp into a receptacle have I crossed two conductors?

Why are you smarter and allowed to second guess why a manf. put something in the instructions?

they would print it multiple times in bold letters....which they haven't

Let me:

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

Mike, just stop. You are not making any headway at all in proving your view.

 

[jxofaltrds]

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The admonition against crossing the hot and neutral applies to general power circuits anyway. I doubt that many electricians here are likely to tap the hot off the smoke alarm and land it on the neutral screw at a receptacle. That warning is, IMO, meant for the weekend wizard installing his own detectors. It has nothing to do with the smoke detectors being wired "in series". There is nothing wrong with, and others have indicated it may be required, having lighting or receptacles on the same circuit as the smoke alarms. I do not recall in the NEC or NFPA 72 anything about said ligting or receptacles being required to be only before or after the smoke alarms.

I am not making mountains - I just showed what was in the instructions. If reading is a big deal then so be it!

Only allowed before the smokes not after.

(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing or labeling.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike, just stop. You are not making any headway at all in proving your view.

OK do what ever you (anyone out there).

I just said how I read the instructions. If I am wrong it is easy. Write the manf and ask them.

 

[gadfly56]

I am not making mountains - I just showed what was in the instructions. If reading is a big deal then so be it!

Only allowed before the smokes not after.

(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing or labeling.

At the risk of beating the expired equine, nowhere in the instructions you linked to does it, in fact, say this.

 

[Frank DuVal]

I have read the BRK instructions in the link that Mike provided.

I do not see in the instructions where more branch circuit devices cannot be taken off at any point in the series. Note I used the word series, just like BRK did, to allude to a sequence of smoke detectors, NOT that the detectors are wired in series.

My definition of crossing, as in crossing the hot and neutral wires, is putting white wire to black wire, not adding a device to the circuit.

I guess this is why English seems so complicated to outsiders, and why lawyers win by twisting clear English words into different meanings.

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

 

[GoldDigger]

Remember, it is only 95% of the lawyers that give all the rest a bad name!